Saturday, April 4, 2015

The "Saw" of Islam (republished, originally from December 2006)

Lirun, a fellow blogger asked me how I felt about an Islamic State in Lebanon. Since I'm neither Lebanese nor Muslim, I'll change the premise slightly and answer the question as it relates to an Islamic state anywhere in the Arab world. Before the vultures start circling and accuse me of being a rampant Islamophobe, take note that the following is nothing more than my perception and a representation of what I feel; rather than a position that fits any particular agenda. My issue is with increased religiosity in general. It just so happens that the most overwhelming religiosity in the Middle East today is Islamic. I have just as many issues with what's happening in the US, but the Arab world is more significant to my personal life than the Bible Belt.
I have picked "introspection" as a label for this entry so as to reinforce the notion that my views towards the matter are in constant evolution, so do not consider any of the following to be finite but rather a reflection of how I feel about it today.


Here it goes:
Have you ever seen the "Saw" series? For those who haven't, it's a trilogy of horror films where victims are tortured and binded to bizarre and extremely painful devices. What's original about Saw is that the tortured characters have a way out, but at an incredible physical and psychological cost. In one particular scene, the standing victim's torso is trapped in a giant metal contraption with metal rings threaded into the person's spinal column. To escape the contraption, the victim has to reach into a jar of extremely corrosive acid and pull out a key. The key is dissolving fast and would disappear within minutes unless the victim is willing to burn her hand to pull it out. To make matters worse, once the key is used to unlock the device, there's no knowing the extent of the damage those metals rings will have on the victim's spinal column.

I'm afraid we are headed towards several Islamic states in the Middle East, the "key", or solution is dissolving fast and the only way out comes at the great expense to the "body of the state".

With pan-Arabism floating like the bloated carcass of a dead whale, Islam is being championed as "The Solution".

I am scared.
Not only do I already feel culturally excluded here in the West, my own Arab world, a long time insurance policy in case I ever want to go back is being pulled from under my feet.

Do not speak to me about the faraway lands of Andalusia and of the once-upon-a-time Muslim tolerance of minorities. Those days are long gone, and there's no knowing what shape Islamic rule will have in the future. Islam, just like Christianity and Judaism has its progressive and its regressive elements. Who will prevail in the end? Will nominally Christian Arabs like me be merely tolerated? or will we live as full citizens with rights and responsibilities? What about citizens who chose to be non-practicing Muslims, or Atheists? Will there be a new Fiqh (Jurisprudence) that adapts to this century?

The Islamic regimes are coming and its only a matter of time before Assad and Mubarak give way to the masses. Before you call me alarmist, how many of you have actually lived in the Arab world? How many of you arm-chair Marco-polos have actually seen first-hand the transformation in an Arab society?

Consider the following personal anecdote:
Growing up in the UAE, we used to have neighbors who were Palestinian like us and nominally Muslim just like we were nominally Christian. Every Eid, my mother would offer them a tray of 'Awameh (عوامة او لقمة القاضي) and every Easter they would bake us a cake. We used to live 2 floors apart and the visits were frequent. Almost every Friday, both of our families would congregate in either living room. Potent Lebanese Arak flowed freely amongst the adults and sometimes they would even allow us kids to have a sip.
Then the day came when their daughter, who was a pre-teen at the time decided to wear a veil. Her mother, a working mother of three, who dressed as any Levantine woman of the time, was horrified. She fought her daughter tooth and nail. But the daughter prevailed and kept her head covering. Just like the "key" in my Saw analogy, the effects were corrosive. In the beginning, the veiled daughter would not join our family evenings since alcohol was served. To accommodate her, the Arak was kept in the cupboard (الله يرحم ايامك يا ابو توما و يا غنطوس). Later on, it was the mixing of men and women that bothered her, so the men came over to our living room and the women to theirs (admittedly, her father was relieved since now he could drink his Arak un-harassed!).

Over the years, the mother started wearing the veil, first during Ramadan and later every day of the year. The father and son started attending Friday prayers at the local mosque. The girl is now married and living in Jordan, she wears a Niqab (full face covering).
What once was a beautiful friendship between our families was reduced to mere exchanges of courtesies in the building's elevator. And it all started with a simple piece of cloth...

11 years ago, when I was a student at McGill, I used to be part of what was once called the Palestine Solidarity Committee (now SPHR - Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights). Our most vocal members were girls.

The other day at an Indian restaurant, I happened to be seated next to a table with a dozen SPHR members. Half of them were girls and EVERY ONE OF THEM WAS VEILED! Will the day come when SPHR gatherings will be completely segregated? How will that effect our image and ability to influence change. Will it cement the perception that the struggle for Palestine is linked to a larger Islamic context?

If the whole Arab nation decides to veil its women, so be it. However, it will not change the fact that all of this religiosity is new and threatening to me.

It scares me.
I'm not used to it.
I miss the days when God was a personal affair and allegiance to Him-Her-It wasn't so explicit.

The Religiosity bug is not limited to Muslims. Some members of my own family have left our allegedly too sedate Melkite sect and joined the more obnoxiously proselytizing Evangelical stream.

Religiosity for me represents fissures at the family level and the greater societal levels. I haven't yet seen a manifestation of it that is inclusive of others who do not share the same opinion. I know I'm not alone to feel this way, there are millions of Arabs and non-Arabs who agree with me on this.

Unfortunately, Islam is indeed the Solution in the Arab world at the moment, as there's no other viable choice. No alternative ideology has the energy, the weight, or the unifying potential of Islam. The question is, which of the many, many versions of Islam will prevail. Will there be a regressive Caliphate or a new brew of Islamic democracies that draw from the positive and inclusive elements of the the Quran and the Hadeeth?

By the time you have finished reading this, the key has long dissolved.

May God save us -- الله يستر


pic credit: http://blog.horror.main.jp/

107 comments:

a from berlin said...

Salam Nizo,

(salam here probably being more than just a greeting and including a wish).
I found your post very impressive..

What would you think could be the key? Or what could help/hinder using it?
What could (to stay in your picture) make the acid worse, dissolving the key faster?

I think I can at least partly relate to your fear, even though I of course have much less experience with arab countries than you have.
Maybe this also plays a role in my search to understand more about what's going on there.
But as much as I would wish I knew what to do (and not "only" to sit and learn and try to understand), because I am afraid of what is going on, I am also afraid that fear alone is a bad counselor.

There are quite some people who are interested in dialogue, learning from each other and understanding what's happening. Those are the one's who give me hope. Because they all overcome their original orientational systems and broaden the horizons. They all learn, that there is not only one truth out there.

And I believe that this is a very important way against fanatism of any form, be it in religion or in other ways.

Still, I realize that as much as I would like to just trust in this way, I doubt its success, especially in times when the fear grows...

Nizo said...

Salam A,

I wish I had a solution.

It definitely doesn't help to take a belligerant stand against the followers of Islam, as it inflames passions and drives people into the arms of extremists.

If it's a question of inter-faith dialogue, there's no shortage of priests, rabbis and imams who'll sit together for days and debate theology. Those conferences don't typically bring about positive change either.

Ich habe keine Einung...

Lirun said...

i dont know what to say..

slowly breathing out a mellow wow.. its interesting hearing your perspective..

how sad.. how divisive..

this is the first time in my life that i have ever felt anything similar but over the last 2 years i have really begun to notice the same thing..

i guess as a child you dont realise the wall people put between them so much.. but now i find it terrifying.. not being able to shake someone's hand or hug someone..

this would have to single handedly be one of mankind's strongest and weakest points.. the ability to differentiate can yield so much greatness and so much sadness at the same time..

i admit - i share your fear

tsedek said...

a from berlin, I think a poster at the mideast forum -a jewish/american woman living in iran, of whom you know her blog, I'm sure- wrote it like this, and I sorta trust her judgment:

Living surrounded by tens of millions of Muslims here in Iran has really changed my whole view of Islam. I have first hand expereince of kindness and tolerance. (I know people find this hard to believe, but it *is* true…)

Despite this, their is an awful lot of hate speech that comes out of the mouths of ayatollahs, clerics, and politicians.


For her further opinion read on the link:

http://www.mideastyouth.com/2006/09/14/isit-really-islam/#comment-19036

(how do you link using html here?)

a from berlin said...

tsedek,

Thank you a lot for the link!

I did not mean to say that I think all hope is lost or to claim that Islam is the problem.. (in fact I think fanatism is the problem.)

But I am (at least at times) worried about those who preach hate. And the interesting thing for me is, that I realize my fear makes me defensive and less open(which probably is a quite widespread problem and I try to learn to fight it, from people like you e.g.)

I have only been to Syria and Iran so far and also only for short time.
Actually I think about going to an arabic country for a while after I finish my degree, (I already started learning arabic ;)), because I am interested in the culture, history and especially in everyday life, and also because I want to learn more and understand and I feel that even though I (obviously) appreciate blogs a lot, they do not make up for personal experiences.

I would be very happy, if I could just stick with the way I am dealing with it right now: being curious, open, sometimes careful, but usually interested.
I just hope that I am not living like that out of being blind or ignoring parts that I don't want to see.
And Nizo's post brought back those fears...

tsedek said...

I know, A from Berlin. I think (but who am I?) that you're holding on to the right position: fanaticism (everywhere) is the real enemy, not islam, christianity, judaism or whatever....

(PS - I saw Lirun found himself an additional forum to join LOL )

Nizo said...

A, if you ever need help with your Arabic, especially the spoken Levantine variety let me know :-)

Anonymous said...

Hi Nizo,

Islam isn't the saw... prejudice and fear of what is different is.


Just a question : How many muslim palestinian-isreali terrorists have you heard of?

Answer? 0

I am not asking this question to be a bitch, I am asking it just to make a point.

Extremism is a reaction to injustice. No human being in the world will go to the point of blowing him or her self up unless they are subjected to extreme injustice.

This extreme injustice has happened in Lebanon where a segment of the population was starved for years while the other has three cars and didn't really care and it has happened in Israel where a lot of palestinians do not have access to the Isreali citizenship although they are born there and have no way out of their "country" because they are not lucky enough to have a second passport and no chance to educate themselves or build a future for themselves.

I have to wonder... if someone had given a jewish father in a concentration camp
some explosives before his child was about to be gazed and if someone convinced him that by blowing himself up they could end the Nazi regime if they would not have done the same thing?


I am not justifying the actions of extremists. I am just saying that extremism is a terribly misguided reaction to misery that is created by very real tangible social problems.

Islam is not the problem. The deformation of islam is used as a tool by extremists to unite miserable people under one single cause and promise them an exit from
the hell they are living in.

the solution to extremism does not lie in irradicating Islamic, christian or Jewish states . It lies in us trying to understand where the extremists are comming from , in trying to see what it is that drives them...

Making their living conditions more agreeable. Providing them with other means to put food on their table and education and a place in which they can build themselves
would neutralise them because people would be treating the root cause of the problem which is the injustice that fuels the hatred in the first place.

For us to be able to do this though requires us to put our fears of what is different aside though and not judge people or allow them to have different standards of living and different rights based on their relegion.

I don't think the problem lies so much in Judaism ,Christianity and Islam as to the intolerance and prejudices we have of each other.

If each muslim man treated a jewish man like he did his own would the Jewish man not treat him just as warmly and vice versa? Isn't the same true of the christians too?

There is a saying in christianity that unfortunately christians never apply... it says that if you want to save the world ..you need to start with what you are doing wrong...

well if we were all to look at what we were doing wrong as Jews ,Christians and muslims and if we were to refuse to treat each other in any other way then as equals would the world not suddenly look like a very different place?

keeks

Nizo said...

Keeks,

Thanks for your comment :-)

Your words of acceptance are wonderful! I hope people in the middle east listen and apply those ideals.

And I sincerely hope that there will be acceptance not only of religious people but also those who seek to reform religion and allign it with the current realities.

a from berlin said...

tsedek,
you know it just came to me that maybe I should just stop looking for the "perfect" way to deal with all those things. There probably is not one perfect way out there anyway.
So, if I want opennes and learning to be my way, I just choose it to be. :) (and in the end it is going to be my individual contribution to the whole..)

kinda liked that thought...

Nizo,
Thanks a lot for your offer!
I definitely could use some serious help with arabic. Especially with the one you mentioned. How about meeting for a coffee and practising conversation? ;) (too bad that there is a little "lake" between our cities..)

tsedek said...

a from berlin, my personal motto is 'one life = one world' - that's the basis of my approach to everything. (Taken from the story of Sdom & Gmorra - in which God would grant the whole city life if there was only 1 person who was not guilty).

Nizo, you make me cry. I wanna learn arabic as well. Where r u? :(

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Salam keeks,

We are not extremists. There is no such thing as Muslim extremism. The ones you have in mind, al-qaida salafis and wahabis are not Muslims.
We will never accept injustice and humiliation. We defy and fight oppressors because it's a duty.
We defied the Palestinians. When they left and the "israelis" imposed their occupation, we defied the "israelis" and fought and drove them out of our lands. When "israel" invaded last summer we remained steadfast in the face of their "smart bombs" that destroyed tens of 8-9 story buildings every day. Some of us had nowhere else to go and stayed there for a very long time until we could leave -- can you imagine sitting in your house and not knowing which building they would hit. They did eventually hit ours (it was completely leveled) but we had left by then.
I come from a very secular family --my parents were extremely secular and were not on good terms with my brother because he became religious, and they never managed to mend things between them.
After the war, my mother all of a sudden turned religious. She now supports HezbAllah, when before she did not.

We hate the usa because it is the source of all our catastrophes. everythign that hashappened to us since 1982 was done by usa directly or indirectly. i used to live in the U.s. i regret i ever went there. what they did to us last summer will not be forgotten, and we will strike back in an appropriate time and place. if the u.s is so brave in confronting us let them come, like they did in the 80s. what are they afraid of, Muslim youth seeking justice like one did in 1983? they were bombarding us, isn't that terrorism? so we drove them out of our country and iwe are now terrorists and extremists? america is the mother of terrorism.

"israel" is an illegal terrorist entity that has brought us only pain and suffering and destroyed our houses and killed our loved ones. there is no way we will ever accept them in our midst. they want to control everything and want to live like they do in the west, and they want to do it in our midst, while keeping us down and oppressing us. they don't even want to live as equals. they believe they are the "chosen people". they are supremacist fascists and we can never accept injustice and supremacy. you said that the reason for extremism is inequality and injustice but they have the best standards of living, like in the west, and they are the most extremist and terrorist. so that means they are terrorists by nature. zionism is terrorism.
they always say that when they still occupied south lebanon the people lived better because they moved between Lebanon and "israel" and so on, but that is a lie. only a few christian villages benefited from it, while we couldn't even sell our own crops because they imported it from "israel". they wanted to turn Lebanon into a market for "israeli" goods.
see how they want to justify occupation. if we hadn't fought they would've even settled there like they did in 1948 and 1967. come on do u think Lebanon would've been any different from golan, sinai, west bank, gaza? it wasn't. we prevented their settlement. we all know they want all the way to the litani, it is still a dream and they are working on it, and all the time they repeat they want peace with Lebanon. that is a lie. if they did they wouldn't have done what they did last summer, they turned people more towards HezbAllah than against us. soooo the objective was to occupy south lebanon and ethnically cleanse , ever wonder why every time they are about to invade Lebanon they always talk about the Litani? because it's their dream.
but they will never have it.
as Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said, they don't know who they are fighting against, they are fighting against the descendents of Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and the descendents of His Family and Companions.
if they want to live like they do in the west they can go and live in the west. since the west loves them so much and sends them billions of dollars and "smart bombs" to kill us. we will never hand over our weapons, ever. they want us to be disarmed so that they can use the smallest excuse - like some rogue elements firing rockets into "israel" - to invade and occupy our lands. they did it in 1982. they did it since 1948. that is their history and we know it well. we will never let them do what they did in 1982 even if it means that it would result in what happened in the july war.

right now we have terrorists sitting in the government and claiming they represent us. these people were making under the table deals with "israel" during the war. DURING the war. while we were getting BOMBED. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?
these people want to prop up "Shi'a" clerics and figures who support them. they want to turn us into obedient subjects like our 'leaders' were puppets in the 40s and 50s. we will never accept to go back to the 40s and 50s after so many sacrifices.
look they are even propping up sheikh subhi tufayli who was kicked out of HezbAllah. this guy was criticizing us for running in elections, and he launched a rebellion against us, and was wanted by the Lebanese authorities, and now this illegal government invited him to speak and are supporting him. it shows their intentions.
we are the only ones who want to do away with the sectarian system. do you find it logical that we make up more than 50% of the population and we only have 27 seats out of 128? the Druze are less than 4% of the population and have 8 seats. the christians are less than 20% and they have 64 seats. the greek orthodox aren't even more than 2% of the population and they have 14 seats.
they say that this is their guarantee against the transformation of Lebanon into an Islamic state. but how does this make sense? how much longer can they continue this? will they continue this when we become 70% of the population too? is this america's idea of democracy? well, so what, let them come and live here, why are they leaving the country. we got bombed in the summer, and the CHRISTIANS who did not get bombed LEFT. if they will leave how is it our fault? the minority that stays wants to control us. and they want those living outside to have voting rights to control the affairs of those who live inside. why? how does that make sense? there are more Lebanese living outside than there are living inside.

now we have weapons, and they don't dare take away the 27 seats that we have. the more they are reduced in numbers the more willing they will be to use force to prevent a change. if we give our weapons they will force a christian state on us like they did in the 40s and 50s. our weapons are not for internal use but they guarantee our existence and our rights. if we didn't have those weapons do you think "israel" would've even spent time thinking about occupying or the terrorists currently in the government would've stood there folding their arms and not doing anything against us?can't you see the venom these people are spewing? walid jumblatt the druze leader said we were sheep, that we couldn't think for ourselves.what guarantees do we have that he will not put his venom into practice?
why don't they hand over their weapons? we weren't the ones sniping innocent students from the roofs of buildings on january 25.
they want to place the blame on Syrians and Palestinians, there were no Syrians and Palestinians arrested that day. it was Lebanese followers of walid jumblatt and hariri.
they are playing games with us in the south, moving the blue line. they think we don't know about it? they think too lowly of us, tthey think we are backwards peasants who don't know how to do a thing properly. now we are patient and we have not retaliated, but this doesn't mean we will be patient forever. but if they are doing this while we have the means to retaliate, i wonder what they would do when we DON'T have the means?
The Saudi Arabian WAHABI TERRORIST SUPPORTER "king" talks about us as if we are "things". he warned "us" against "Shi'ifying" the Arab world. i bet they and the mossad are the ones who are behind all those bombings. did you hear what Marwan Hmade said 2 days ago? he accused US directly of being behind the bus bombing. and they wonder why we are so suspicious of the so-called international tribunal?
let them also investigate the disappearance of IMAM MUSA AL-SADR and the assassination attempt on Ayatollah Sayyed Fadlallah which killed 80 people in dahiyeh.

so we are not extremists. those around us are extremists, and we are only reacting to their provocations and incitement.
the first PLACE that should be LIBERATED is SAUDI ARABIA and MAKKA al MUKARRAMA. it is in the hands of ANTI-MUSLIM and TERRORIST-SUPPORTERS. no wonder they ally with "israel". birds of a feather flock together.

tsedek said...

and we will strike back in an appropriate time and place.

and they will strike back, and you will strike back, and they will strike back, and you will.....

"you" & "us" have become political gain words even covered by hypocracies like blaming "you" for doing injustice to "us" while you, AlGhaliboon don't even know me.

"you" & "us" should be fighting injustice together because imposing whatever agenda "you" or "us" is having upon the other IS injustice. As your hizballah promotes injustice by interpreting "your" Islam to only "your" own benefit leaving the rest of mankind out and thereby imposing "your" will upon others eventhough you can claim a million times it's not so - the evidence is clear.

There are 2 "you" & "us"-'s:
the ones that truly respect justice and the ones that pretend. "You", AlGhaliboon fall under the second classification - not being able to look out of your little ethnic box and connect to ALL people who want justice for ALL - thus, in fact, following EXACTLY the same recipe as those you say you fight.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

tsedek I will ask you this, and I think it will be enough to only ask this in reply to your comment.
WOuld you accept living in ONE state in all of Palestine, with EQUAL rights for all including all the Palestinian refugees, regardless of their religion? One state.
Would you?

tsedek said...

is that what you want, alghaliboon? and then, when being in a majority here and feel misrepresented put up tent-camps and force your way of life upon others?

if there wouldn't be any discrimination i would happily want to live with everybody whoever wants to live here together, alas... you know (although i think you'll deny) the fate of the jews - everywhere they are being discriminated (and demonized) and persecuted, that's not of my doing, so i think "they" deserve an equal right to self-defense/determination in that part of their being "us" as anybody else in the world.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek, if there is equality and justice there is no need neither for tents or anything else.

We would never discriminate against anyone. If you don't support injustice (i.e. "israel") you are more than welcome in my house. Jews are not our enemies. Zionists are. If you are a zionist you are supporting injustices against me and others like me, and I cannot sit at the same table with someone like that.

Calling for the end to the occupation (of 1967 AND 1948) and for the return of refugees is not calling for discrimination against Jews. Please remove that from your head once and for all.

If the Jews face such terrible discrimination outside "israel" as you claim, why are there 6 million Jews in USA alone?

Why are there 300,000 "israeli" "expats" in California alone?

By the way, do you know how I was treated in america??
Maybe you have become so blinded by your obsession with the so-called mistreatment of Jews that you think it is the worst thing that is happening in the world. In which case may I break the news to you, you are not "unique", nor is your case any more important than that of others.
And if you DID believe in JUSTICE and in HUMANITY, then you would not have subscribed to the idea of doing injustice to another people so that the Jews can live in a better environment. It is clear, therefore, that you have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to tell ME that I do not believe in justice, etc., because it is YOU who does not. The proof is that whereas I support COEXISTENCE in ONE state for ALL to live in EQUALITY, you do NOT.

By the way, did you know that "israel" is the most dangerous location for Jews to be in today?
So please let us not use the so-called "anti-Semitism" card to justify support for injustices against the Palestinian people (not to speak of injustices against us).

In the end, the refugees WILL return.
You can support the idea of sparing killing and bloodshed and supporting their return SOONER rather than LATER, or you can continue to support "israel" and its "right to exist".
"israel" has no right to exist as a supremacist racist terrorist state.

IsraeliDiary said...

As always, your posts are beautifully written, provide a very interesting and intelligent point of view.

I think that all Islamic countries should be democratic. All the people should be free to choose their way of life. Nothing should be imposed on us.

In my point of view, a religious extremist is a paradox. Religion is give to us by God for good purposes. He doesn't want us to kill each other in his name. We all believe in one God, it doesn't matter who the prophets were so why can't we unite and have one, single religion we all could agree on and follow?

Nizo said...

Thanks Israelidiary,

I agree..

tsedek said...

Justice means everybody has a right to exist, AlGhaliboon.

Walidoo said...

ah... ya allah people ... can't we all just get along?

We came from the same freaking cellular organism if you are secular and we came from the same creator if you are not...

the continants were all one once before they broke off dew to the sesmic plates and the earth belongs to none of us... we belong to it as it feeds us , clothes us shelters us and eventually eats us and outlives us when we die..

countries and borders are constructs of the human mind ...they have no real physical existance before we allow them to have one.

There is no such thing as the USA or Israel .. or Palestine... or As Americans and Lebanese and Palestinians /Jews . It is us that create these identities ourselves in a poor attempt to define who we are. We are all so much more then our nationalities though! We are all so much more then our relegions! We are human beings ... we have one life... one chance to live... to leave our mark ... to change this world and make it a better place... ofcourse we all have the right to exist.. but not at the expense of another!

Both the group we belong to and the one we do not belong to are used to help to define ourselves and to help us build a cultural identity by similarity and by opposition. One is as human as the other... both have the right to live...

Neither has the right to impose this created identity on the other
Neither should fear the other

because there is not other to fear or to hate or to oppress until we create one!

Our cultures are beautiful social constructs but that is all they are... a way of attempting to make some sense , some meaning out of our crazy existance...

I say we ban nationalism no more "isms" at all actually ... No more citizenships ! No more passports ...everyone has the right to go everywhere! No more governments... why should some rule others? Everyone should rule himself or herself... We should stop killing to survive as well .. we can all become vegans or vegetarians and
speak a common language so that we can all understand each other... then with the help of god we can all begin to work together not for financial profit but for the greater benefit of all humanity...for those we have learned to hate and those we have learned to love...

We can plant trees... fight pollution poverty injustice... we can send off all arms to outer space ... and the first person to
try and impose there will on another gets sent of to the moon...

I know ... I am insane.. but I am so tired of wars and of human suffering.. I love humanity so much ... i just wish we could all find a way to coexist without hurting each other...


Do you think it is possible?

Anonymous said...

walidoo how many prozacs did you take today?

|3run0 said...

AlG:"By the way, did you know that "israel" is the most dangerous location for Jews to be in today?"

Arguably Lebanon (or "Lebanon", according to the SSNP and the Assads) is the most dangerous place to be if you are Lebanese. Especially if you believe that a continuing state of war with Israel is a moral imperative.


I doubt you will be leaving anytime soon. If you think about why you stay, then consider that Israelis too may stay for the same reasons. Right or wrong they want to live in their own country, and will fight for it just like you will fight for yours.

As for the Palestinians, they also need a country of their own, for much the same reasons the Jews did. A place where e.g. Nizo won't feel excluded. There is no such place today, and some binational chimera won't be it either.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

"Bruno"
You do have a way at twisting words.

Suffice to say, my words were meant to debunk tsedek's repetition of the myth that the purpose of "israel" is to defend Jews from persecution and murder, etc.
Your twisting of my words into a whole new argument is therefore irrelevant.
I was not the one who espoused the view -- it was tsedek's.

However, I say, let them fight if they want to. In the end they will make matters worse for themselves and end up leaving altogether. They have a chance at EQUALITY-based COEXISTENCE. They might not have that chance again. Indeed they will NOT.
If they are going by the philosophy of "it's never too late" they are MISTAKEN. We do not turn the other cheek, we are not Christians. We are also not Prophets, so we do not have never-ending patience. Our patience is beginning to run out, and when it truly totally runs out, it won't even be as "good" as the July war was for them, even with their total humiliating defeat.
We are ready to sacrifice ourselves for our beliefs and cause. We sat under their F-16s that were dropping tons of bombs. They were crying about a bunch of Katyushas that we hurled across the border at military installations mostly. They do NOT want to experience some of the "other" things we have been kind enough NOT to use so far.
It is NOT in their true interests of "survival" and "never again" to start a war or carry on with their terrorist policies against our people. It is in their interests to accept the dismantlement of "israel" peacefully, and the return of the refugees. TRULY. If you do not believe me now, you will remember my words in the coming decades, or maybe even years.

tsedek said...

We sat under their F-16s that were dropping tons of bombs. They were crying about a bunch of Katyushas that we hurled across the border...

alghaliboon it doesn't testify of humanity not to be afraid. fear is a human characteristic. it's part of humanity, dear.
so, your 'tough' talk doesn't make any impression -

i repeat Khalil Gibran :

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

only machines don't have feelings.... are 'we' up against machines?

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek I was not talking abt fear or feelings. If the bombs you dropped on us were dropped on you, there would've been no zionists left in "israel".
It shows our willingness to die for our land and for our cause, whereas you continue to whine about the 2 soldiers who were "kidnapped" and who would have definitely been returned in an exchange: that was the whole point.
If you want we could try playing a game of imagination.
Let us say we had your F-16s and you had our Katyushas.
What would you have been doing?
Would you have been in "israel" by now? Or would you have fled "your" land?
But yet, you could not even go past Bint Jbeil. For 20 days you couldn't even occupy Maroun elRas. MAROUN el-RAS. do you know where that is??
the days where you could come to our lands and KIDNAP civilians and politicians from their homes in front of their families are LONG OVER. You can forget about that. Now it is our turn to give you a taste of your own medicine. So quit whining.
btw i see you are only picking out which points to adress instead of answring all my reply.

tsedek said...

Tsedek I was not talking abt fear or feelings. If the bombs you dropped on us were dropped on you, there would've been no zionists left in "israel".

that's an assumptionl, AlGhaliboon to make yourself feel good. people are people, in the hizb or in israel: just get used to it no-one withstands pressure better or worse than one-other.


It shows our willingness to die for our land and for our cause,

and you think all fallen israeli soldiers showed anything else? that's naive.

whine about the 2 soldiers who were "kidnapped" and who would have definitely been returned in an exchange: that was the whole point.,

untill the next 'exchange' or any other excuse the hizb needs in order to keep the fire burning?
Tell me AlGhaliboon: why is it that NOT EVEN ONE Syrian soldier is killed or kidnapped by the hizb while there are a lot more Lebanese prisoners in Syrian jails?

Let us say we had your F-16s and you had our Katyushas.
What would you have been doing?
Would you have been in "israel" by now? Or would you have fled "your" land?


you definitely underestimate the soul of the israeli. it happened before (1948, 1967 and 1973) - that fighting till the end was on stake. if it happens again, you'll probably taste again the what it means to fight for your existence for an israeli by the results it will show you.



+++++++++++++++

you drag me into 'war-talk'

it's your choice, and - if you insist - finally, what you will get on your plate, you're not dealing with amateurs here, but a country, backed by the US with the most advanced weaponary, and you're provoking. not to go till the end, is the choice of Israel - because so many innocent people would be victim then, before they'd get to the source of the fire-burner: you.

that's why, mr/mrs AlGhaliboon you are the one responsible where you take it from here:

do you accept peaceful people wanting a peaceful solution, backed by a MUCH broader 'audience' forcing them to enact justice for all,

or do you want to fight?

Remember, when you fight - you are doing nothing else but contributing to human hurt (which you might find your consolation in by thinking it's in God's way you act - but that doesn't sooth the un-indoctrinated souls yet that ultimately ARE the victims) -

and not to justice, because justice is respect for LIFE, anybody's life and ghosts of the past don't LIVE anymore, but we:

you & me

do.

|3run0 said...

AlG, we can trade inverted commas for all eternity if you like, but I'm trying to make you understand an important point. The reason for Israel to exist is to provide Jews with a homeland. Historically, the threat to life and property they now face is hardly unprecedent; the difference is that now they can do something about it.

As for this 'something', Israelis do have F-16, and much else, which you don't. You certainly can't outescalate them. It is not fair, and its meant to be. If you want a fair fight, go play tennis.

You talk about the destruction visitited upon Lebanon, but fail to grasp that Israel doesn't have to set foot in Maroun el Ras to destroy Lebanon, or any part thereof. And if the course you advocate is followed, this destrucion will be repeated over and over, with increasing severity.

You may think this is all worthwhile because a couple of decades from now you may crawl from under the rubble of what was once Lebanon to hand back to the Palestinians some blasted moonscape where Haifa used to stand. I think it is lunacy.

You and HA don't seem to accept any kind of moral responsibility for a pointless and seemingly eternal state of war. But I think history, and your fellow Lebanese, won't be so forgiving.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

It is not an assumption, it was proven by facts. For reference, see how many people fled their homes from a couple of katyushas. YOU are assuming things to make yourself feel better about the crushing and HUMILIATING defeat at our hands.

The so-called "israeli" soldiers felt "invincible". they had been fed the myth of an invincible "israel". NOW, we shattered that myth. We will see how many are willing to die -- especially in the land that is the GRAVEYARD of your soldiers.

I already answered the question about Syrian soldiers. That is a dream you will never see come true. Try picking another dream. Maybe dream about another war next summer. But keep in mind next time we will not be as patient as we were this time, and we will spare neither your chemical plants nor anything else.

In 1948 you committed ethnic cleansing against helpless civilians, not a war. In 1967 you launched a surprise attack to expand your borders. In 1973 you were saved by USA. Or don't you remember you were all crying about the "2nd holocaust" when your defense lines were broken?


We are dealing with a "country"? You are not a country. You are a collection of bloodthirsty terrorists who speak in the name of justice while killing innocent people. Or tell me, is 1200 = 2 in your world of justice and equality?
Your "advanced weaponry" did nothing. It killed children, that is all. Is that your idea of military victory? You can kill our children, and us. But let me tell you, we are from a place called JABAL AMEL, we are as SOLID AS THE ROCK and we will spring up again and again.
Thank you for proving my point . you show willingness to use your nuclear weapons to preserve your terrorist state, when you are offered equality and coexistence in one state. is this your idea of justice? and who is the bully now? you, not Iran. you are the first that should be totally disarmed. The ISLAMIC republic of Iran has not waged ANY offensive war. the same cannot be said about the so-called "Jewish" state of yours. so who are the terrorists? MUSLIMS? or the zionists and their U.S backers?

Your concepts of justice are laughable. you say justice is respect for life, but you are willing to even support nuking us to preserve the so-called "safe haven for Jews". so much for your justice.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

I do not care about reasons. I care about REASON.
It is unreasonable to say that "israel" provides a "safe haven" for Jews. It does not. Most Jews choose to live OUTSIDE of "israel", including "israelis" themselves.
Most Jews do not even seek to get an "israeli" passport.
What "threat to life and property" are you talking about?
Jews have all their rights as citizens in other countries. The problem is that some of them (zionists) are supremacists and want to be treated differently. they cannot tolerate to live as equals. they perpetuate the myth of anti-Semitism to justify their actions.in that respect "our" leaders the puppet arab dictators are their best allies, it only gives 'credence' to their claims that we are anti-Semitic when we are not. Jews are more than welcome to live amongst us.but anyone who is a zionist is my enemy , whether he is Jewish , Christian or Muslim.

"Israel" can have all it wants, it can get as many F-16s as it wants, but we are here to stay, and if it thinks it can eliminate us, it can think again and RECALL 1973, only this time we too have someone standing behind us to help us. Just because we have not used our weapons to liberate PALESTINE does not mean we are incapable of doing so. Of course you will not have heard this, and the "israelis" did not report this because they were censoring the media,but OUR FIGHTERS were INSIDE an "israeli" TOWN for a VERY LONG TIME, and held it for some time, then they withdrew.
i think the censorship of the media says enough about the state in which "israel" , with all its f-16s and NUCLEAR BOMBS, was in.
But if you think we are incapable, and that guerilla tactics can only work defensively, please think again, because you will realize that you made wrong calculations because we are very much capable of doing it and we did it, and we will do it again if need be, and all the way to Al-Quds.
If you are also betting on the 'internal' Lebanese card, you have placed your bet in the wrong place.
and i would say dont boast of the nukes too much, you do not know what we have, and in a few months or a year at most "israel's" nukes wont mean a thing.

|3run0 said...

"What "threat to life and property" are you talking about?"

Well, 1948 was merely 3 years after the holocaust, when jewish life and property suffered far more than the occasional Katyusha hit. Most of the surviving european jews were in camps, which whatever you may wish upon the Palestinians, is not how people want to spend their lives. And of course shortly thereafter hundreds of thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab countries (or self-expelled, if you are to be believed).

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

"Bruno" it is you who wish that the Palestinians would be condemned to living in camps, not I. I am talking about liberating the land, which, contrary to what you and your likes have tried to make us believe for the longest time, IS possible. The myth has been shattered, and WE were the ones to do it.

If it is a matter of simply preserving Jewish life and property, they can go and live elsewhere, maybe they can make Uganda bloom, or maybe the U.S would dedicate one of its states to the Jews, since they love them so much.
But the thing is, this is not even an issue with Jews. The problem is not with Jews, but with zionists.

Go do some research on the Arab Jews and how they all left of their own will. The Lebanese Jews also left of their own will, like the Leb. Christians have been doing for the past few decades... Anyway you are making it look like "israel" should stay because these people cannot "return", well they are more than welcome to live amongst us, they don't have to leave, so this myth is also not working anymore, try finding another one.

|3run0 said...

""Israel" can have all it wants, it can get as many F-16s as it wants, but we are here to stay, and if it thinks it can eliminate us"

Good. I don't want to see you exterminated, and neither, I think, do the Israelis (if they did the past war would have been far worse). Besides the obvious imorality of genocide, what would be the point?

Unfortunately the sentiment does not seem to be reciprocal, and you are very much keen on exterminating them. You then go and provoke them with whatever scarce means you do possess. And then act all outraged when your country gets, predictably in not excusably, blown to bits.

In a way, paranoia is a form of self-flattery. You believe you matter to your enemies far more than you actually do. You seem to think Israelis stay awake at night scheming to steal the Litani, or commiserating over your supposed victory. In fact, unlike in 1982, today they want as little to do with Lebanon as possible, and would leave you alone if you left them alone (but then what would be the point of the 'resistance'?). This is not because they are wonderful and perfect people, but because they have better things to do with their lives.

|3run0 said...

"["Israel"] can think again and RECALL 1973, only this time we too have someone standing behind us to help us"

Yes, do recall 1973. After massive inflows of American and Soviet munitions to both sides, the Israelis were on the roads to Damascus and Cairo, the Syrian army was shattered, half of the Egyptians were surrounded, and the Soviets threatened WWIII to get a cease fire to save their clients.

Of course, if you think trading the Soviet Union for soon-to-be-bankrupt Iran will be enough to change this outcome...

Andrey said...

Nizo, would you please free AlGhaliboon from the duty of liberating your homeland?

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Again twisting my words are you.
To so-called hysteria about us "exterminating" "israelis" is a myth. I was the one talking about ONE state for all 3 religions, including all the Jews who now reside in "israel", and it was tsedek who was talking about nuking us to preserve a Jewish-only state. So who is the one wishing to "exterminate" the other? Go play with someone else if you're going to twist my words.

We have left "israel" alone for many years, and did that get us our prisoners back? The "israelis" are simply LIARS, they lied to us about a 2nd stage, we were naive enough to believe their lies, but we will NO LONGER BE NAIVE to believe their lies.

all the myths you have propped up are collapsing and soon "israel" will collapse like a house of cards. if "israel" could not occupy Maroun al-Ras for 25 days, and kept saying they had occupied it, then saying they had occupied it again, and again, and made fools of themselves, you can imagine what it would be like if we all fight against "israel" and no, "israel" would not wish to use its nukes, because it would not wish "similar" weapons to be used on them. but at the end of the day no matter what they do, it will show the whole world who offered them peace and equality and who launched a nuclear war like a madman for the sake of preserving apartheid and occupation and terrorism.

YOU and YOUR BUDDIES the zionists have made an industry out of the holocaust, and you and your buddies have made an industry out of the so-called "Muslim/Islamic terrorism".
But truly, if you are crying wolf now, when the wolf really comes, who will come to your help?
Will "america" be there in the near future?
Will "israel"?

you must be terribly misinformed about the reality of the situation.
Let us see what will happen when USA invades the ISLAMIC republic of Iran, that will show what we are made of, and it will show that "israel" WILL disappear, if not peacefully then by force.

|3run0 said...

AlG, when did I earn the inverted commas? Do you think I don't exist, or have no right to exist?

I don't want the Palestinians to live in camps. I want them to live in their own independent country, the establishment of which is greatly hampered by near genocidal rethoric coming from their supposed friends and leaders. Of course while Palestine is just a dream, the Palestinians do not have to live all but incarcerated squalid camps, as they do in Lebanon. Nizo is not in a Canadian camp, and neither are the Lebanese refugees from the civil war and their decedents who reside in Brazil

The myth of Israeli invincibilty has been shattered too many times to count since 1948. They have suffered many defeats and setbacks far more significant than their tactical reverses last year*. They do not, and have never felt invincible (except perhaps between 67 and 73). You would perhaps understand them much better if you realized much of what they do comes from a sense of insecurity, rather than invulnerability.

As I've repeated twice in this thread, the purpose of Israel is not merely to "preserv[e] Jewish life and property", it is also about giving the Jews their own homeland. They are no more likely to give it up for Uganda than you are.

And lastly, I'm not questioning your military competency, or commitment. I'm criticizing you strategic choice of neverending war. You keep confusing the tactical trees for the strategic forest.


__________
* Such as in, e.g., their occupation of southern Lebanon, the end of which can be claimed as a HA victory with far more reason than the outcome of the last war.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Do you even have a point to make?
You are going round and round in circles. What is this "insecurity" that they feel? And don't we have the same right to feel "insecure"? Don't the PALESTINIAN (not "Arab") citizens of "israel" have the right to live in security?
Don't they have the right to live anywhere they want?
Who is against living together? The Arabs or "Jews" (zionists)? last I checked Arabs were being denied residency in "Jewish-only" cities/towns, if anyone did the same against Jews, everyone would be all over the place accusing the whole world of conspiring against Jews and being anti-Semitic etc etc. Now do you see why the term "anti-Semitism" has become like the case of the boy who cried wolf? can't you see it already? ENOUGH. REALLY. Enough is enough. Who believes your LIES anymore? If you have propagated the lie so much that you have come to believe it yourself, do not think that others will continue to believe it. WE WON'T. The world WON'T. It has come to a point when the world has woken up to the holocaust INDUSTRY, the justification of WAR CRIMES and terrorism based on the treatment of Jews by OTHERS, not US.

ANd yes, they can GO and LIVE in UGANDA since it is only us "Arabs" and "Muslims" who do not want to see how great and civilized they are, and how they have made the desert bloom. Seriously, why do us all such a "favor" when you could do the same favor to more grateful people? I am sure your Christian zionist buddies in USA would love to hand over one of their states for the Jews, I am sure they won't see anything wrong in the disposession of their fellow non-Jewish Americans to make way for the poor, oppressed, persecuted Jews. I am sure they would find nothing wrong in having 10,000 "security" prisoners in the Jewish-only state that they so-love. I am sure they would find nothing wrong if their fellow Americans are kidnapped from their houses and kept for 20 years in dungeons under torture and other indecent acts, all because "the Jews feel insecure, and their actions stem not from feelings of invincibility but from feelings of insecurity". Yes I am sure they would accept that. I am sure Tsedek would accept to live in such a place, where we "terrorists" do not exist, and do not form a "demographic headache" (as if we are THINGS/OBJECTS). These are the same people who claim they see people for the INDIVIDUALS rather than automata that they are... What a joke. Your myths are collapsing, one by one. And the good thing is that we do NOT need to argue to make your myths collapse, you do a good job at doing our work for us.

|3run0 said...

"Again twisting my words are you.
To so-called hysteria about us "exterminating" "israelis" is a myth."

Much anger I sense in you. Anger the path to the dark side is ;-)

Ok, let me clarify then. You (but not necessarily your ideological fellow travelers) do not want to put Jews into gas chambers. But you do want to destroy the country Israel, by violent means (unless your threatened march to Al Qods, and the reply in kind to Israeli nukes, are figures of speech), and replace it with a binational entity.

I believe this would inevitably lead to the Jews becoming a persecuted minority in yet another Arab country. And I also believe Israelis and Palestinians are two distinct people, and that there is no conceivable single state to which both would call homeland simultaneously.

And finally, I do not think the lovely Samir Kuntar deserves to be anywhere but in jail. I certainly do not believe his incarceration justifies a war.

|3run0 said...

"Do you even have a point to make?"

I have and I did. Repeatedly. The problem is that hate gives you purpose in life, and no amount of persuasion can change that.

_____________________________

In any case, goodbye for now. However much I dislike some of your views, I actually enjoy talking to you, and I appreciate your willingness to engage.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

I will make this very fast and short, re Samir Quntar, he did not kill the 4-year old kid, that is YET ANOTHER myth.
THANK YOU AGAIN for showing me that you believe in MYTHS and base your arguments and justifications on them.

If you do not read Arabic, it is not my problem. Use a translator or something. Or have someone translate it for you.
This is from Lebanese Annahar newspaper which was and still is pro-"israeli":

ودخلت المجموعة الأولى شقة داني هاران (28 عاماً) واقتادته اسيراً مع ابنته اينات التي تبلغ الرابعة من العمر الى الشاطئ في محاولة للخروج بهما من اسرائيل ... وخرج الفدائيون الثلاثة من البناية معهم الأسيران. واشتبكوا مع دورية شرطة اسرائيلية فقتل
الرقيب انياهو شاهار (24 عاماً من مستوطنة معلوت (

وصرح الناطق العسكري الإسرائيلي أن الفدائيين قتلوا الرهينين، لكن شهوداً لاحظوا ان الفدائيين حاولوا الإحتماء بالرهينتين فقتلا في تبادل النار.

23 نيسان 1979، جريدة النهار

Jews were NEVER persecuted by us. Under the Ottoman empire we were all equally persecuted, I do not see why the Jews would qualify as being “persecuted more”, especially us the Shi’a. The Shi’a were slaughtered in Egypt, we have no rights in wahabi-ruled and currently “israel’s” ally Saudi Arabia, we are persecuted by all other regimes where we are minorities. In Lebanon we do not have equal/fair representation even though we make up more than 50% of the population. Does that give us the right to go and settle in “Israel” and kick them out? Or will you now say I cannot achieve justice at the expense of others? And aren’t the Palestinians “others” too? Or only the Jews?

tsedek said...

t is not an assumption, it was proven by facts. For reference, see how many people fled their homes from a couple of katyushas.

And? What did I write? To be scared and fear is a human characteristic. What for heaven's sake did i write that you did not get that? I respect and admire people that are not staying as madmen in a place of danger and stupidly -in a pseudo-heroistic manner- put themselves in danger. You turn the world around AlGhaliboon: you make violence a virtue. I don't. Most certainly not. The gift of life is invaluable - it has no price - none. How dare you judge people that try to conserve (their) lives and protect it suggesting they're 'cowards' or something?

The so-called "israeli" soldiers felt "invincible". they had been fed the myth of an invincible "israel". NOW, we shattered that myth.

You seriously think so?
You've given them a sign they're slumpy, at most. You've shown the IDF where there weak points were - so they won't lose focus, next time. If the IDF would really have been so 'cowards' 'weak' and 'inhumane' as to kill children purposely, I might remind you of the scorched earth method.



In 1948 you committed ethnic cleansing against helpless civilians, not a war.

Sure :S
6 countries declared war on israel, but history is as you say it is, or else it's a fairy tale , gna gna gna.....

We are dealing with a "country"? You are not a country. You are a collection of bloodthirsty terrorists who speak in the name of justice while killing innocent people.

You are entitled to whatever opinion you might have, that's your Godgiven right. However, to look away from reality and shud your eyes while pursuing what you call 'justice' - doesn't make reality go away: this reality carries a vow of selfdefence. Fierce, very fierce, selfdefence. And, if you are 'willing to die' for what you call 'justice' that's your problem then: don't come afterwards complaining about 'the terrorist state israel' - that's just too transparantly hypocrite.

Is that your idea of military victory? You can kill our children, and us. But let me tell you, we are from a place called JABAL AMEL, we are as SOLID AS THE ROCK and we will spring up again and again.

To be killed again and again. Don't you have respect for life, AlGhaliboon? None at all?

Thank you for proving my point . you show willingness to use your nuclear weapons to preserve your terrorist state, when you are offered equality and coexistence in one state. is this your idea of justice?

While threatening with extinction (of the jewish state) - you talk about justice? You 'offer' - or else we'll destroy you....
No justice you're talking about, AlGhaliboon. You're talking about having it your way or the highway. I prefer the highway - never, listen: NEVER, will I, peacefull, accepting everyone and anybody person, accept that you by force put your will upon me. I, personally, would fight you till the end, if you'd attack me. Let that be clear. And, 99.9% of the people of Israel are of that opinion, so dig your grave if you want, however: by doing so - know that you'll be guilty for the deaths of many, many innocent people you drag into this war of ghosts.

Still you didn't answer me a straight forwar answer:

why don't you kill or kidnap syrian soldiers if lebanese prisoners are of so much concern to you when fact is that many more lebanese prisoners are being held by Syria?

I suppose you don't have an answer?

tsedek said...

Samir Quntar, he did not kill the 4-year old kid, that is YET ANOTHER myth.

Sure,

keep on believing in a make-believe world of denying facts replacing them with fantasies.

Ciao

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

etc etc tsedek please start making more sense, you are not making any sense, you are repeating what your "leaders" tell you, and yet you claim you are "different".

"6 countries declared war on israel, but history is as you say it is, or else it's a fairy tale"
ANOTHER MYTH. BEFORE the declaration of "independence" by "israel", there were 9 (NINE, in case you didn't see it) operations INSIDE the lands allocated to the Palestinians. This is before ANY Arab army even cleaned their tanks and rifles to get ready for any "attack".

Homework, name the 9 (NINE) operations that the terrorist "israelis" conducted BEFORE any Arab army ever set foot in Palestine.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

"why don't you kill or kidnap syrian soldiers if lebanese prisoners are of so much concern to you when fact is that many more lebanese prisoners are being held by Syria?"

I already answered this in another post of yours, don't remember where it was, look it up..

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

tsedek, i provided you with solid evidence, from a pro-'israeli' paper citing from 'israeli' papers and witnesses at the time. if that is a myth to you then that is great, i am sure a 'country' built on myths is reall a 'country' and not a house of cards...

as for what you want and don't want, well i appreciate that you told me what you will never accept, but i'm afraid that won't make much of a difference after a certain point in time.
go read what your own historians and analysts have to say, try avi shlaim and others. try reading about the so-called 'iron wall' policy adopted by 'israel' , and the fact that 'israel', blinded by its greed and feelings of invincibility did not even go along with the initial iron wall plan, when there were leaders willing to negotiate and compromise. this is the end result you get. go read it, your own 'israeli'/pro-israeli authors say it. but all the better if you don't, continue with your myth-building and myth-making, it will spell your terrorist country's end even sooner.

Nizo said...

Ya Allah, I come back from a draining day at the office and I have to read all this!

Here's how I see things:

The southern Lebanese have suffered from every party in the conflict; the PLO, the IDF, the Syrian army, the SLA.

These people were raped and their lands pillaged and plundered. Lands which were already neglected by the Lebanese state(run by the haughty Maronite-Sunni elites).

Hizbullah is a recent phenomenon, it grew out of a reaction to all of the injustice. The people of the South needed a voice. Given the context where everyone and their uncle has a private army, these people felt compelled to finally have one of their own. Jumblatt even once said that he regrets not having killed a thousand more Shiites when he had the chance.

The Shiites who were the downtrodden minority have grown to become a significant portion of Lebanon, and they are demanding what has been denied to them for a very long time. When people are treated like cockroaches for generations, do not expect them to smile and hand out flowers.

Since Barak's withdrawal in 2000, the raison d'etre of Hizbullah's military wing has been put into question. Wanting to liberate Jerusalem gives them a raison d'etre. Very simple. Now the difference between Hizbullah and Saddam's Iraq is that although both spoke of "liberating Palestine", Hizbullah did put its money where its mouth is and engaged Israel in several confrontations. Hence the prestige in the Arab world.

The question is, if Hizbullah does one day threaten to dominate the political scene in Lebanon, will Syria accept such a state of affairs? They will be the first to stab Nasrallah in the back, and would even kill him if needed.

Al-Ghaliboon, that is where I cannot understand how an intelligent and eloquent individual such as yourself cannot condemn Assad's Syria for what it is: An opportunist and parasitic regime. Or perhaps you choose not to condemn them before an Israeli audience.

5 million+ Israelis are there to stay even if you and I agree that the land was acquired by force. Talk of a binational state is "doctrinaire", it can be theoretically moral and ethical on many levels, but cannot be rooted in reality at this current time. After 60 years of denying them the legitimacy they seek, we want them to accept 4 million Palestinian refugees? We can't have our cake and eat it too. These people believe that they truly own this land. Their Torah mentions it countless times. They have also managed to defeat the Arabs and have in their eyes "earned" the right to exist.

There's a parallel between all of us debating here today, Palestinians, Jews and Southern Lebanese. We have all suffered at different points in history. We are all insecure. Insecurity breeds mistrust.

Alghaliboon, we also believe that we are the rightful inhabitants of the land and we have suffered an incredible injustice. But rhetoric of "liberation" will only sway Israel further to the right. The more insecure they feel the more they will turn Israel into a fortress and the more they will see our rights as mutually exclusive to theirs.

When Ahmedinejad says he wants to wipe Israel off the map, do we realize he's talking about annihilating 6 million souls! These are a people who came out of a Holocaust less than a century ago when 6 million where turned to ashes. Do we realize that such hate-speech only emboldens extremism on the Israeli side as well? it feeds those who are against compromising.

It is our job to try to convince them we are human too and that we have a right to exist just as much as they do. That should be done in a peaceful way, inspired by Gandhi. No amount of Katyushas, Qassams, Fajrs, Shihabs etc.. will help us win our rights. But if we try to educate the Israelis that we are humans just like them, and that we want to live (NOT DIE!), surely we will prevail in having our injustices corrected. We're not monsters and neither are they.

|3run0 said...

Nizo, that was eloquent! You are one cool dude.

Tsedek said...

LOL


I second |3run0

;)

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

نزار،

صحيح أنّ النظام السوري لا يجابه إسرائيل عسكرياً (حتى الآن وليس بالضرورة نهائياً) ولكن هذا لا يعني انّ النظام السوري لا يفعل شيئاً لإسترجاع الأراضي المحتلّة. سوريا الشقيقة هي الجمهورية العربية الوحيدة التي تدير نفسها بنفسها وترفض علاقة العبد-السيّد بينها وبين أمريكا. وبطبيعة الحال فإننا سنظلّ ندافع عن كل من يواجه الشيطان الكبير والشر المطلق بحقٍّ وعدالة. والشقيقة سوريا لها الحقّ في التعامل مع أمريكا بهذه الطريقة-أي الرفض المطلق لشروطها.أمّا عسكرياً فكما قلت، عندما يطفح الكيل سيجابه مجاهدو المقاومة الإسلامية في سوريا إسرائيلَ مجابهة النمور وبمساعدة إيران سيمحونها من الوجود إن شاء الله تعالى.
****
الصهاينة هنا الآن، ولكن في حالة حرب حاسمة لن يبقوا هنا إلا إذا استسلموا لشروطنا العادلة، أي العيش في دولة واحدة عادلة لجميع أبنائها دون استثناء، سواء كانوا مسلمين أم مسيحيين ام يهود. أما إذا رفضوا فسيحصلون على وقت معيّن لضب أغراضهم والرحيل الى البلدان التي جاءوا منها. فلا مكان للإرهابيين على أرض فلسطين وفي عاصمة السماء.

عندما بدأنا بمقاتلة الصهاينة في لبنان قالوا عنّا، إنّكم مجانين. قد نكون مجانين واصوليين، نعم! ولكننا حرّرنا الأرض، وإن كنتَ قادراً على ذلك ألن تقوم به؟ إنّ من يريد تحرير الأرض يكون مستعداً كل استعدادٍ للتضحيات. أنظر الى تضحياتنا ونتائجها.
****
مشكلتكم أنتم المسيحيون أنّكم تؤمنون أنّ العدوّ (اي عدوٍّ) عادل وصادق، وانكم ستقدرون على الحصول على جزء من حقوقكم بالتفاوض والمفاوضات. للأسف الشديد، وبعد كل ما حصل في فلسطين المحتلة منذ النكبة، لم تتعلموا شيئاً عن العدوّ الصهيوني. للأسف.
وأنتم تعطونهم ذريعة ليقولوا عنّا أننا إرهابيين ولا نريد التفاوض. نعم نحن لا نريد التفاوض، لأنّ لا أحد يمكنه التفاوض ولن يقبل بالتفاوض أصلاً مع إرهابيين. هل سيتفاوض الأمريكيون مع بن لادن والظواهري الخ؟ إذاً على أي أساس يريدون أن نجلس على طاولة المفاوضات والحوار؟ هل سيجلسون هم أيضاً على طاولة الحوار مع بن لادن؟ إذاً إنّهم يريدون أن نركع أمامهم ونطلب منهم أن يعطوننا جزءاً صغيراً من أراضينا، حتى يقدر العدو الصهيوني العيش في سلام الى حين يكون قادراً على شنّ حرب إرهابية أخرى لتحقيق طموحاتها الإستيطانية.
****
ليُؤمنوا أنّهم يملكون الأرض! كانوا يؤمنون أيضاً أنّ جنوبنا أرض "يهودية". كل إنسان حرٌ على أن يؤمن بما يريده، ولكن السؤال هو، ماذا بعد؟ ماذا سيفعلون بـ"إيمانهم" هذا؟ ماذا فعلوا في جنوب لبنان؟ لا بل ماذا قدروا على أن يفعلوا؟

إذاً لا تعطيني كلاماً كهذا. هم يؤمنون بشيء ونحن نؤمن بشيء آخر. نحن لا نعرف أرضاً غير أراضينا المحتلةً وقد حرّرنا بعضها والبعض الآخر لا تزال في أيدي الصهاينة الذين يلوّثون المياه والهواء الخ.. نحن نملك الأراضي أمّا هم فقد احتلّوها. ولا إيمانهم ولا الشيطان الكبير سيساعدهم على الحفاظ عليها. إنّ الحقّ دائماً يرجع الى أهله. وإن كنّا قد خسرنا الأرض فالسبب الحقيقي ليس أنّهم كانوا يشعرون بتعلّق أكبر بها الخ، بل السبب هو أنّ حكامنا كانوا يركضون وراء مكاسبهم (ولا يزالون)، وأيضاً لأننا ابتعدنا كل البعد عن الله سبحانه وتعالى ونبّيه عليه السلام ولم نمشِ في خطوات الإمام الحسين عليه السلام. وهؤلاء القادة كانوا أعداءنا قبل أي أحد او شيء. فماذا فعل جمال عبد الناصر بحق الإخوان المسلمين؟ وما الذي فعله "فتح" بحق حركة المقاومة الإسلامية-حماس؟
****
إنّ كلامي الـ"تحريري" كلام حقيقي وغير كاذب. نحن لا نكذب ونتكلّم عن أهدافنا أمام الجميع، ليعرف الجميع قضيّتنا. وإن كانوا سيستخدمونها لإقناع أنفسهم وشعبهم بضرورة الإستمرار بأساليبهم الإرهابية فليفعلوا ذلك، وليستخدموا الإرهاب والترهيب، إلا أنّهم كلّ ما فعلوا ذلك كلّ ما سرّعوا دمارهم. لسنا بحاجة الى الإستعجال والعجلة، فإذا استمر الصهاينة في الطريق الذي يمشون فيه سيسهّلون الأمور علينا كثيراً كثيراً. صدّقني، كثيراً.

وقد بدأوا بالمساهمة في مشروع تدمير الدولة الصهيونية الإرهابية في تموز الماضي. والله لم يستشهد أحبّائنا لسبب لا وجود له. فهم أوّل الذين استشهدوا في الطريق النهائي والأخير الذي سنسلكه. وإذا رفض الصهاينة دولة واحدة موحّدة والعيش المشترك والتعايش في فلسطين، او رفضوا الرحيل الى بلدانهم، فإننا سنخوض حرباً لا مثيل له في تاريخ الشعوب، حرب "يا انتو يا نحنا". والله العظيم مستعدّون لذلك. وإن شاء الله لن يطول الإنتظار. إن شاء الله.
ولن يكون هذا الحرب إنتفاضة الحجارة ولا حرب الكاتيوشات، إنما حرب القنابل البشرية وحرب شبيه بالحرب العراقي-الإيراني اي حرب الأولاد الذين يمشون في حقول الألغام وورائهم المقاتلون. ليُقدِموا على خطأ ويستعملوا اسلحتهم النووية وسيكونون قد وقّعوا وثيقة موتهم الجماعي. يجب أن يعلموا أنّنا لن نصبر الى الأبد، فنحن أهل كرامة ولن نقبل بالذلّ ولم ولن نركع ولن نستسلم. نحن لسنا مسيحيين. نحن لا نقبل بالتفاوض مع من يريد القضاء علينا والإستيلاء على أراضينا. لم نقبل ولن نقبل بأية تنازلات. إنّ كل من يقدّم تنازلاً أيٌّ كان، هو عدوّنا وسنحاربه كما نحارب وسنظل نحارب الصهاينة. زمن الضعف قد انتهى. الآن نحن في زمن الإنتصارات. وسنحارب من أجل كل شبر من أرض فلسطين من ابل القمح في أقصى الشمال الى أمّ الرشراش في أقصى الجنوب.
هذا ليس كلاماً فحسب. إنّها الحقيقة، صدّقني، كل الحقيقة. ستزول الدولة الصهيونية عن الوجود وسيشير اليها المؤرخون كأكبر مشروع إرهابي في تاريخ الإنسانية.
إن شاء الله.

tsedek said...

I've put your msg through the translation machine, AlGhaliboon and frankly:

you frighten me.

You frighten most by the tone of your msg that shows you have distanced yourself from normal human feelings by dogmatisms.

Hopefully not many people will follow your 'path' - of destruction and self-desctruction and will show more sentiments to the really only true gift God gave us: life!

We are people of dignity and we will not accept humiliation did not Nerka will Ness receipt. We are not Christians. We do not accept to negotiate with those who want to destroy us, but Stelae on our territory. We did not accept and we will not accept any concessions.

Guess what? "WE" - do not want to negotiate with those who want to destroy 'our' existence either. There will be no concession regarding this. None. Whatsoever.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

tsedek if you want to understand your enemies and maybe become friends with them (when you accept the most basic tenets of justice), you do not rely on some translator, that is ignorance. Learn Arabic and then read my post.

keeks said...

Alghaliboon

ok... say the Chrisitans the druze the shias and the sunis are here to stay in lebanon and Israelies and palestinians are to stay in Palestine/ Israel.

How do you propose we all live together peacefully?

What would lead you to accept Israel in the middle east and what would lead them to accept you?

Say it has to exist as a zionist state... but the palestinians can get there own state and the lebanese don't get the Shibbaa farms but get a peace deal in return for economic exchange.

Would you accept peace with them then? If not can you please name the circumstances under which you believe Hizballah would accept peace with Israel and what you think could lead the lebanese to unite?


What are your solutions aside from war? Do you have any?

Because if you don't you are going to give the impression to people that you can't be reasoned with or talked to and then you frighten peopleoff and they begin to believe there is no way that they can live with you...hence that the only solution is war.

so please ...if you can ..why don't you propose what you think would be
a just and fair solution that would allow all the people in the middle east to live in peace THAT DOES NOT ENTAIL WAR and that allows Israelies to have their state , palestinians to have their state, the christians sunis druze and shiahs all to feel represented and safe in Lebanon and to all have their say .

I would also like to know what it would take for Syria , Israel, Lebanon and Palestine to strike a peace deal .
And please , don't tell me it is not possible... use your imagination... humour me... but give me an answer that you think is fair for all sides.
I know in you somewhere , you have an answer.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

keeks
i don't care if the 'israelis' are here to stay and if they choose to call themselves 'israelis'. that is not the problem. the problem is that right now their state is a racist supremacist and terrorist entity and it needs to be dismantled and in its place a just state established. i don't care what that state will be called, for all i care it can continue to be called 'israel' but it has to include all the original inhabitants or else it is not a just state.

if we will accept 'israel' they will have to offer us compensation for all their terrorism against us. that means trillions of dollars that will then be used to build our roads and houses and everything else. and also Sheba'a farms and the 7 villages which are now kibbutzim , their inhabitants can be given lebanese citizenship. and we can in return establish economic ties with them (with guarantees that they will not run over our market with their goods).

plus they should accept the return of all Palestinian refugees and offer them compensation.
maybe then there can be a federal or cantons solution in palestine after everyone goes back to their hometowns.

it is very easy to implement, and it can be done under the supervision of the united nations with guarantees from states that we can all trust (not usa or uk or saudi arabia) and maybe even disarmament of all sides but it has to start with 'israel' because it is far more powerful than we are.

when they do that i will not wish to fight them although i will not forgive them either.

and in lebanon we should have a nonsectarian majority system where we can have a chance at becoming prime minister or president or army commander or whatever.

when there is peace in palestine according to what i said we can hand our weapons over to the lebanese army because there will be no need for them to defend ourselves from 'israel' and the army can do that after proper training and arming and reforms but it will only be a formality because when there are just states there is no need for weapons or war.

when all the conditions are met i think we should make peace with that new state whatever its shape or new demography is.

syria can do the same with the golan heights. and then there will be peace.

but none of this will happen because 'israel' wants to rule over us.

tsedek said...

AlGhaliboon what you ask for is the equivalent of the israeli extreme "right-wing" (radicals) - who ask for the whole of the land (without palestinian state) and transfer for all israeli arabs.

That's the other side of the balance of your proposition.

Luckily enough both your and their ideals of 'justice' are in minority (I hope).

Tse.

PS - I want to learn arabic but it ain't an easy language ya'know!

Nizo said...

اخي،
هل انت فعلأ تؤمن ان سوريا ممكن يومأ ماان تهاجم اسرائيل?
و في سبيل فلسطين? من السوري المستعد ان يضحي بحياته او بحيات ابنه ليحرر ارض غيره? لو كانوا السوريين فعلأ رجال ما كانوا سمحو للطائرات الأسرائلية ان تحلق فوق قصر الأسد في الصيف الماضي. لو كانوا نمور كما تدعي ما كانوا تنازلوا عن اسكندرون التي كانت تابعا لهم قبل ان تحتلها تركيا. انا اعتقد ان الأسد مستعد ان يستغني عن الجولان لكي يستمر بهيمنته على لبنان. لبنان مهمة جدأ للاقتصاد السوري و لا يمكن ان يستغنوا عنها. علاقتهم مع حزب الله مبنية غلى مصالح معينة حتا لو كانت نيتكم انتم الشيعة نية صافية و شريفة. سورية لا تساندكم لسواد عيوونكم. و صدقني يا اخي العزيزِّ ان سيأت اليوم لما سوريا راح تقلب عليكم و تخونكم كما فعلت بباقي الفئات اللبنانية.

ــــــــــــــــــ

على صعيدالحل للقضية، من الرغم من انني احترم ارائك، حتا الآن مقتنع ان الحل الغير سلمي جُّربناه عدة مرات وما اسطتعنا ان نحقق الكثير(سيبك من جنوب لبنان، هذا كان وضع لن يطبق على باقي الأراضي)، لماذا لا نجرب ان نحل مشاكلنا في طرق اخرة?

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

نزار،
أنا أتكلّم عن الشعب السوري الذي لن (أبداً) يتنازل عن شبر من الجولان. نحن شعب واحد وكل لبنان وفلسطين كانت سوريا قبل أن يستولي عليها الفرنسيون والبريطانيون. أمّا النظام السوري، فقد لا يتعامل معنا لسواد عيوننا ولكن هذا لا يعني أنه يجب أن نقطع علاقتنا معه. أعتقد أنّك لا تعرف حقيقة العلاقة بيننا وبين سوريا الشقيقة. نحن لسنا حلفاء ومن يعتقد أنّ الحدود اللبنانية السورية هي المطرح الوحيد لنقل الصواريخ فهو مخطإ مخطإ. سيّدنا حسن نصر الله قال في خطاب احتفال النصر الإلهي: ليسكّروا البحر والبرّ والجوّ وليحاصرونا، هذا لن يمنعنا من الحصول على الصواريخ. كنّا خلال الحرب ولا نزال نستورد الصواريخ وليعتقد الصهاينة أنّ وجود الـ"يونيفيل" المعزّزة "انتصار" لإسرائيل من الناحية تلك (او من أية ناحية كانت)، فإنّهم يخدعون أنفسهم وشعبهم. إننا بصراحة في تجمّعاتنا نضحك عليهم وعلى أقوالهم واساليبهم الإقناعية لشعبهم. فكل هذه خير دليل على من انتصر ومن خسر في تموز الماضي.

إنّ سوريا الشقيقة ليست لديها أي نية في الرجوع الى لبنان، فإنّ بقائها هنا كان رهنٌ بإرادة القادة اللبنانيين الذين كانوا حلفائها (او بالأحرى عبيدها بإرادتهم التامة) لعشرات السنين بعد انتهاء الحرب. نحن في يوم من الأيام لم نطلب من سوريا البقاء في لبنان، لكننا نعم! أبديْنا شكرنا لمساندتها لنا (مهما كانت نيّتها) في مواجهتنا للصهاينة. والآن يتكلّم عبيد أمريكا (الذين كانوا عبيد سوريا قبل 2005) عن التجمّع تلك وكأنّها كانت مظاهرة ضدّ الإنسحاب السوري. إنّهم يكذبون كما كذبوا على شعبهم وسرقوهم وارتكبوا الجرائم والمجازر بحقّهم لسنين طويلة جداً.

إنّهم الآن يلعبون بالنار وأقوالهم وافعالهم ستتسبّب برجوع سوريا الى لبنان. فإنّهم يريدون تغيير النظام السوري لا بل يركضون وراء سياسات أمريكا الإرهابية، ومستعدّون لتقديم لبنان على صحن من أجل أهداف أمريكا بتغيير نظام الأسد. إذاً إنّهم يعملون ضدّ مصالح لبنان، فمصلحة لبنان تكمن في إقامة علاقات وثيقة بين دولتين شقيقتيْن وقد طالب به الجنرال ميشال عون (قائد جيش سابق) الذي أعلن في أواخر الثمانينات حرب التحرير ضد سوريا بينما كان جنبلاط القاتل السارق وجعجع المجرم والحريري يساندون سوريا. ونحن كنا مع الجنرال في تلك الوقت. كنا نذهب الى التجمعات الحاشدة لتأييد الجنرال. أتذكر تلك الأيام، كان أبي يأخذنا الى المظاهرات. وكانت أياماً صعبة جداً خصوصاً بعد رحيل الجنرال وهيمنة سوريا (ومعها مجرمو الحرب). إذاً من كان حليف سوريا ومن شكر سوريا فقط للمساهمة في المقاومة ضد الصهاينة؟ ما كانت حجّة هؤلاء؟ هل كانوا يقاتلون عدوّاً؟ لا، كانوا يقاتلون شعبهم وتسبّبوا ببؤسهم ونزوح الآلاف الى بلدان الإغتراب.

إنّ الحل الوحيد ضد المجرمين والقتلة والإرهابيين هو السلاح والإنتفاضة ومقاتلة الذين يرفضون الرحيل عنّا او تركنا لنعيش حياتاً شريفة خالية من الذلّ، فهؤلاء لن يفهموا إلا لغة العنف والمقاومة. ومن قال أنّ ما حصل في جنوب لبنان لا يمكن تطبيقه في فلسطين المحتلة - كل فلسطين - لا يعرف الكثير عن العدوّ الصهيوني. فهذا العدو سيهرب من ساحة القتال - أينما كانت ساحة القتال - كما هربوا من جنوب لبنان سنة ألفين ومرّة ثانية سنة ألفين وستّة. وكما هربوا من قطاع غزة. سيهربون سيهربون، حتى من القدس سيهربون، من القدس "الغربية" كما من القدس الشرقية.
إن شاء الله.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek you do your so-called "radicals" (in other words fascist neo-nazis who believe in racial purity and supremacism and "lebensraum" in other words living space) an honour by comparing them to me.

I knew you didn't know Arabic, but I didn't know you did not know English well enough to understand what I wrote immediately before your reply.

But then again, you are not looking for real partners for peace, you are looking for defeatist Arabs who submit to your demands.

It's pretty much similar to the saying,

بتلعبي دور الشاهد المحامي والقاضي
You play the role of the witness, the lawyer, and the judge.

Good luck with that.

tsedek said...

AlGhaliboon, I ask for compromise. You ask for it all. That's radical. Same as the israeli radicals 'eretz israel shlema'

The ball is in your court, not mine.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek - if you can't tell the difference between coexistence in one state and "expelling the Arabs", then I feel truly sorry for you.
That's all I will say. I hope you will find it in yourself to revise your false comparative logic.

tsedek said...

Oh and AlGhaliboon:

they will understand only the language of violence

this what you wrote in arabic is the best proof of what I claim:

jewish radicals say exactly the same about arabs, just so you know.

I rest my case....

tsedek said...

There IS coexistence in Israel (not great but then there's this 'smal' security problem we got with people like 'your' that spoils a lot).

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Wow you really are "smart", thanks for doing translation for what I wrote, but at least put it in the context instead of copying bits and pieces of sentences.

Here. I will provide the full translation for you, since you seem not to have anything better to do than use the translator and copy the parts that you think will give a bad impression of me.

"إنّ الحل الوحيد ضد المجرمين والقتلة والإرهابيين هو السلاح والإنتفاضة ومقاتلة الذين يرفضون الرحيل عنّا او تركنا لنعيش حياتاً شريفة خالية من الذلّ، فهؤلاء لن يفهموا إلا لغة العنف والمقاومة."

This was in reference to the criminals in Lebanon who were at one point the slaves of Syria and now are the slaves of USA.

Translation:
The only solution against criminals and murderers and terrorists is weapons and uprising and fighting those who refuse to leave us be and let us live an honourable life void of humiliation, as these people will not understand anything but the language of violence and resistance.

****
I can tell you are DYING to compare me to the neo-nazis that you are (you try to differentiate yourself from them but you are the SAME, as you have shown in this VERY post).

There is "co-existence"? Really? Wow, I did not know that. You mean you will only accept co-existence when those you co-exist with do not have more children than you because that is a "threat". Right? So if we extend this logic of yours over 100 years (assuming 'israel' will survive for another 100 years, which it will NOT, it will not even survive another 10 years) then you would even advocate deporting these people in the future 'when' they present a demographic threat. Oh I see that is very different from those who call for 'expelling the Arabs' TODAY. At least they make their intentions clear, unlike you, with your flowery imagery of 'israel' as that place of 'co-existence' and 'justice' which us backwards Muslims want to destroy and exterminate its Jewish citizens.

Stop hiding behind words, make your intentions clear.

حلمكم الأقلية تصير بالمقابر أكثرية.
Your dream is that the minority would be the majority in the cemetery.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

By the way tsedek, quit talking of them as "Jewish" radicals, they are not "Jewish" , they are zionists and thy are not "radicals' they are terrorists.

i have had some Jewish friends and they were nothing like the terrorists that you all are. so do not even try to make this into a Jewish-Muslim fight. It is a fight between all those who seek justice against all those who want terrorism and racism and supremacism and injustice to rule.

Unlike you and your kind, the so-called "Jews", the real Jews stand for REAL justice, and a JUST peace, not the 'peace' that you are advocating and giving yourself a 'good' image in front of everyone.

tsedek said...

You mean you will only accept co-existence when those you co-exist with do not have more children than you because that is a "threat".

HUH??????
Whadda'ya talking about, AlGhaliboon? What nonsense is this??

I gave you the opinion of the israeli radicals and you pretend I'm like that: sorry, I KNOW what I am and I'm (thankfully) not like that. No one will be 'transferred' - only their life will become more and more unbearable if the co-existence is being kept influenced by people like you who want to take over, taking the wrong approach: violence - because you may not see it now, but you are actually playing those israeli radicals in their cards. Plain. Simple. (and stupid, I think).

us backwards Muslims
Could you please refrain from forcing to let anybody think that I think that way? It's in your head, AlGhaliboon: I don't think muslims are backwards. It's you believing that I think so: very erraneously - but who can convince you of that....

I don't want to give a bad impression of you. I see a terribly hurt person that's taking the wrong way trying to make the pain go away. But that's a very m/paternalistic thing to say of me, only it's the truth.

My dream ;)

is that everybody lives together without distrust, hate, power-related feelings, and if possible, with some compassion and respect for human life instead of love for ghosts.

tsedek said...

so do not even try to make this into a Jewish-Muslim fight.
That's very funny coming from the keyboard of someone who just wrote:
....us backwards Muslims ...

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

That is right tsedek, i mentioned "backward Muslims" because that is your view of things whether you like to admit it or not, if not 'you' personally then the multiple you's whose injustice and racism you support by advocating zionism.

So, i was not the one saying it was a Muslim-Jewish thing, I was pointing out that it is your side that wants it to be that way, and your rhetoric is just like that, expel the backwards Muslims/Arabs,etc.

you are contradicting yourself by saying that you support zionism and a separate Jewish state and then saying you are not for 'transferring' the "Arab" minority in the future. if you are using the demographic issue as a scale, then that demographic issue will come to haunt you some time in the futur,e maybe 100 years down the road, and what will you do then ? if you will continue to support the idea of a "Jewish state" then you will have to support "transferring' these people. if not then all this fight is for nothing because 50 or "x" years down the road it will be the same issue about the "Jews" needing to be a majority.

tsedek said...

expel the backwards Muslims/Arabs,etc.

Nope. Hmmm.... I didn't not say to expell anyone: I was showing what jewish radicalists are saying. Second I believe they would want to expell people supporting the destruction of the jewish state. May they be arab, muslim, christian, budhist or whatever. So: you're wrong.

As for the demographic situation, it is very easy really. With normal citizenship and in a democracy (I know you don't find this a democracy but one man - one vote still goes here, whether you deny it or not) - this would be totally not a problem taking over a few decennia - we would grow to become ALL Israeli's then, muslim - jew - or christian. Priorities would be replaced slowly, in good understanding, respect for each-other and trust. Whereas, with the violent approach:

self defence against that can only obstruct this 'evolution' with all the consequences for the violators.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

tsedek you evaded my question.
if the point is that the "Jews" have a right to a "state of their own" where they will not be a mere "persecuted" minority (as Bruno mentioned), then that "ownership" will cease to be the case when the Palestinian (citizens) become a majority. so if you are arguing that Jews have the right to a state of their own then that "right" has to be based on the continuation of the Jewish majority, unless you are saying the Jews (minority) will control the affairs of a state in which they are not the majority (in the future). so i dont get your point , you are contradicting yourself and you are evading the question with your fancy we can all live together once they stop calling for our destruction etc.
I am not getting your point at all. you say the point is that we should not want to destroy you and learn to accept you etc but the point is not the formation of a common idetnity called 'israeli' that is not the point of the whole conflict, not your existence as 'israelis' but your existence as a "jewish state" (or so you all claim) "israel' calls itself a Jewish state so it claims that is the whole point. so what will 'israel' do in such a case when we become the majority?

you are not making sense at all. what would be the poitn of 'destroying' israel in case everyone accepts it when they are a majority and get to have their fair say in how the country is run ? that would destroy the raison d'etre of 'israel' and what you are saying means that, you people expelled Palestinians to have a 'jewish state' and some of them you couldn't expel and these people in time formed the majority so then what was the point of expelling all those people and occupying west bank, gaza, sinai, golan, etc and refusing their return if you are going to accept that you will no longer be a majority in the future.

tsedek said...

AlGhaliboon, for the same reason it was a failure to 'bring democracy to Iraq' -

things have to evolve. who could have thought 67 years ago that Germany would be an equal, friendly part of the European Union?

the reason the co-existence didn't work out in the past is the same why it isn't working out now and it won't work out in the future would this road be continued: violence. And no: don't think there was only violence used against Palestinians. The other way around was just as present and existing.

I know you'll deny this.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek again you are not making sense, and I assume our discussion ends here because you are not replying to my question.
If it is an issue of acceptance of the presence of the other and not having a separate exclusive state for Jews, then there is no reason to fight, that is the whole point of fighting because you people do not accept that we all live equally, that the Palestinians would be equal CITIZENS of their own country and from which they were expelled.

tsedek said...

No AlGhaliboon the riots and violence began because of the jews immigrating into this land (you even wrote so yourself somewhere) and the Palestinians were not expelled or do you have stories that jews carry them over the border? They fled... I don't say it was as black/white as this, but the main line throughout it all.

Suppose: the Palestinians would have stayed put - do you think Israel would look today as it does? Seriously.....


The whole idea was to let jews immigrate into this country - that was where the focus was at (a home for jews), not pointed at the palestinians, but at the jewish immigration - which would eventually create a majority (they expected).

It was only resistance against this (immigration) that set the train in motion...

This land had landowners but it didn't have an landowning authority after the Ottoman Empire - that's why it was completely legal for the jewish immigration to take place.

Damn, I've even heard stories (personal) - from people thinking the palestinians would be glad with the jewish immigration here because of the technology they brought with them and the enthusiasm to dry swamps and culture the rest of the (non-owned by private people's) land.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Thank you for proving my point. You are just as blinded by your hatred and mythology as the rest of the 'radicals' that you claim to differ from.

Nizar, see? Your family were not really expelled, they simply 'fled'.

And Deir Yassin massacre was staged, like Qana, Srifa, etc.

Tsedek, there is nothing more to talk to you about, as you deny even the basic issue.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

But since you are so "cultured" and "civilized" and "advanced", I think you can do the people of Uganda much good. Be my guest. Certainly they will not be as ungrateful as the "backwards Muslims" that we are.

Nizo said...

Tse,
Some Palestinians did flee without a shot being fired in their direction. But not all did, and certainly not my family, I've already shared their experience with you.

Regardless, fright is a universal human emotion, people flee in all wars. Who wouldn't want to protect their family from harm?

As for the feeling that Palestinians would be glad to have "cultured jews" in their midst. Indeed, there were cases where people welcomed the influx of technology, there was even a time when some Lebanese asked for Jews of their own so as to develop their own economy.

Nevertheless, when hundreds of thousands of refugees from a foreign land with a foreign culture dock on one's shores, apprehension is a completely normal and human feeling. Basic sociology dictates that there will be friction. Such friction happens between co-religionists and citizens of the same nation, let alone two different people with rival ideologies and nationalisms.

In any case, let's move forward, we're still talking about the 1930's.

tsedek said...

I would have 'proven your point' no matter what I write, since your so blinded by your prejudices about me that it doesn't matter what I write. You keep on repeating over and over the same old lies backward muslims because that fits nicely in propaganda speech.

Sure I deny the issue you call 'basic' - it's simply not true whatever you wish to be true. So go on fooling yourself so you can convince yourself that you 'fight for justice' -

good luck on your Day of Judgment.

tsedek said...

Nizo, I KNOW whole villages were attacked and the people thrown out of their homes. They FLED over the hills to Lebanon. Sorry. But they did. It's not that I'm underestimating the hurt and suffering of the Palestinians. I'm trying to let AlGhaliboon know that things were not black/white. I know myself people that were so surprised that whole villages who didn't even see 1 shot of fire fled. I also shared that with you.

But, AlGhaliboon is convinced that the jews immigrated and intended to chase away the population here. Which -simply- is NOT so. Only when violence erupted things got kidnapped by extremists (from both sides) and the jews started to 'strike back' by attacking whole villages.

Still: there are many, many stories about those villages in where the people living there would engage in the war.

It's generalizing that's killing the 'good' - and it's generalizing (like AlGhaliboon does) that won't give peace even a chance....

not then, not now.

tsedek said...

Anyway, to cut things short (she wrote as a joke after so many comments) -

'the' is a killer.

'the' jew most certainly did not want to cause harm upon the palestinians living here when immigrating.

'the' palestinians i'm sure because that's what i experienced and what i believe - did not want anything else but to saveguard their own existence.

both became puppets on a string of extremists with 'power' problems.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek your arguments and implictions are disgusting. smply disgusting. it is people like you, people who do not want to see the TRUTH that are behind the start of this conflict, and its continuation. YES, SOMOENE FROM POLAND HAS NO RIGHT TO COME AND LIVE IN MY HOUSE UNLESS I LET THEM TO. But the "Jews" did not do that, they came and stole the land. Only VERY LITTLE of the land was actually BOUGHT, and the ones that were bought were from absentee landlords (mainly christians) who were living in beirutat the time. then sharecropping farmers were thrown out of those lands, and in cases when the lands were not bought, people wre attacked by zionist gangs who were importing weapons from Poland and czechoslovakia. i do not create this out of nowhere, go read HISTORY for starters, but i am not surprised at your ignorance, after all a while back an 'israeli' told me nazareth was in west bank and bethlehem was in 'israel' proper. the sheer ignorance is ridiculous , but it is with our knowledge and aspiration to learn not only history but geogrpahy and also the language of our enemies that we have come thus far, and will go even further, all the way to Umm al-Rishrash( which you have stolen and renamed "Eilat" 'in case' you did not know). when was the last time you made an effort to learn about the history of your 'enemies', about what the land you live on today was called, who were its original inhabitants, and so on.

but you do not care, and still you say you look at 'individuals' and not 'groups'. strange, for someone who says that, you do have a herd mentality and you accept what you are spoonfed by your terrorist government.

go educate yourself before saying more racist things, it is seriously discrediting whatever credibility you still have.

tsedek said...

YES, SOMOENE FROM POLAND HAS NO RIGHT TO COME AND LIVE IN MY HOUSE UNLESS I LET THEM TO

which house exactly? the one he bought next to you?

tsedek said...

people wre attacked by zionist gangs

like in Hebron in 1929?

tsedek said...

go read HISTORY for starters,

talking with people from 'both sides' who actually lived that period is worth less than following one-sided history lessons in which each side forget to mention something that could benefit the 'other side' ?

Walla !

tsedek said...

after all a while back an 'israeli' told me nazareth was in west bank and bethlehem was in 'israel' proper.

yep, that shows you: ALL israeli's are ignorant....

tsedek said...

One question for you AlGhaliboon, if you don't care to answer it, please.

You write all the time "we", "we", "we".

Who is AlGhaliboon him/herself? Do you have a personality?

You see: my "we" is multilayered. I am not a one-sided "we-machine" talking for "we" but, I feel "we" with Nizo - I feel "we" with judaism - I feel "we" with that hero in my last posting on my blog - I feel "we" with all non-violent people - I feel "we" with so many more aspects and people in life.

I don't see that when I write with you. I see a propaganda-machine repeating hizb's words.....

Are you not first and foremost human being? Don't you have to stand before God on Judgment Day all alone for YOUR actions and not for the actions of "we"?

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Oh wow, so "Hebron" (it's AL - KHALIL NOT HEBRON) 1929 ? Do you know that more "Arabs" were killed in "Hebron" in 1929 than "Jews"?

And at the "Wailing Wall" incident there were more "arabs" killed than "Jews". The "jews" were also being armed by the British, and were carrying out armed operations and incursions , helped by a British officer. Go look up his name. "Talking" to "both" sides does not make history, unless you are saying all those professors who did years of research and dug through archives in a dozen or more countries have an agenda, go read Walid Khalidi's book, go read what your archives say, go read Avi Shlaim, Ilan Pappe, etc.

by the way the wall is NOT the so-called wall of the temple, it was built AFTER the temple was destroyed but you have to create myths to 'prove' that there is something of religious importance to 'return' to.

I find it ridiculous that you insist that these lands were bought 'next' to the houses owned by Palestinians. This is sheer stupidity i have to say and may God forgive me for calling a human being 'stupid' but unfortunately there are ignorant people in this world, people who shape history based on an agenda and then say that they would prefer talking to people from 'both sides' to put the pieces together. when was the last time you spoke with a Palestinian refugee living in the squalor of the refugee camps in Lebanon ? all so that you can drive your latest model cars and live in the so-called 'eretz israel' and feel better about yourself by 'ruling over' the downtrodden people.

And did you do your homework about the 9 (NINE) operations that the zionazis carried out BEFORE any Arab army got ready to attack ?

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

"Conquerers ... consider as true history only what they themselves have fabricated" -- cited by Avi Shlaim

Avi Shlaim is "israeli" and he challenges and disproves the zionazi propaganda.

tsedek said...

You show contempt, AlGhaliboon. That wall is even built when you think it was built and not what millions of jews over the centuries KNOW it was built. That's arrogance. Fyi.

You've got a completely distorted idea about me. I don't own a car, I live in an apartment that looks probably worse than any flat in those refugee camps and I cannot afford to buy plane tickets like you do. With me hundreds of thousands of israeli's trying to LIVE their life, struggling to keep their heads above water while fighting you off to stay alive. Who do you think you are to claim sole-victimhood ? Just because that time and the following 3 times the attacks on this country failed and so one gotta live with the consequences? How dare you think in demonized stereotypes about the people living here only so you can satisfy your hunger for keeping alive your 'ultimate victimhood' so you can 'justify' your violent 'solution' instead of looking to a brighter future which may (and will) patch up wrong doings from the past?

How dare you desecrate a REAL jewish holy place with your arrogant dismissal - as if for 2000 years the jews are playing a game praying to the only holy site they're got (as contradicting the THREE holy sites for muslims - which NEVER get descrated by jews, dismissed through arrogance - because holy sites are HOLY, for whoever holds them holy).

And you dare talk about arrogance??

OMG.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek , even Jews admit that the site was built later on, and the practice of the 'wailing' at the wall was much much later. So nothing personal.

But I find it ironic that you talk about "Jewish" respect for OUR Holy sites at this point in time, when you are desecrating our Holy sites and have always done so but to say it now is even more ironic. You also hide facts and lie about our ancient Holy sites to justify the desecration.

By the way have you seen the numerous Mosques desecrated in numerous places in the so-called "eretz israel" of yours, not even your synagogues get such a 'grand' treatment by terrorists in Arab countries. But i guess you learn from the best (the nazis). have you seen the mosque at "Sa-nur"? what about other places, do i need to name them for you?

You say you don't own a car and can't afford a ticket, etc., as if I do? I guess it's only enough to look at the per capita income in 'your' country, if you consider $1000/month 'barely surviving' then maybe you should look at your beloved 'minority' which you wish will remain a minority, and which is kept down economically so that it will remain a minority. and who said i can afford a ticket? just because i have traveled does not mean i paid for the ticket, my ticket was actually subsidized, otherwise i would not even afford to take the bus to Damascus even. So do not jump to conclusions, and before you jump into another assumption , do you know what my monthly salary is (if i get paid) ?
it's not even $300 and i am the only source of income for my family now. if it weren't for Hezb Allah we'd be on the streets and SOMEHOW I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE IN SUCH A DESPERATE SITUATION. So spare me. You really do not want to compare 'notes' on THAT one.

tsedek said...

Tsedek , even Jews admit that the site was built later on, and the practice of the 'wailing' at the wall was much much later. So nothing personal.

You know that goes into the same category as the "even arab leaders admit that it wasn't the fault of the zionists but the arab countries that palestinians left the land"

?

Same token AlGhaliboon. Exactly the same.

tsedek said...

But I find it ironic that you talk about "Jewish" respect for OUR Holy sites at this point in time, when you are desecrating our Holy sites and have always done so but to say it now is even more ironic. You also hide facts and lie about our ancient Holy sites to justify the desecration.


Is that so? (sarcastically asked)

Well, how come then that the power over the Haram al-Shariff was given 2 days after the 1967 war in which our 'friendly neigbours' wanted to destroy us, to the muslim carekeepers and not been kept under jewish control? As you might know that place is holy for jews as well - now they've gotta ask permission to enter it, and even then they're being accompanied by muslim caretakers of the place. How come is that, AlGhaliboon? That jews have to ask permission to go to their own holy site while they won over the people wanting to destroy them and should be in charge (according to logical reasoning, not my opinion, btw).

Have a look at this picture AlGhaliboon and tell if the jews have no respect for holy sites of others:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/images/Maroun%20Al%20Ras%20Mosque.jpg

maroun al-ras, AlGhaliboon....

Want to have a list of synagogues destroyed here? I get it for you. If you are really still that sure of your case...

tsedek said...

You say you don't own a car and can't afford a ticket, etc., as if I do? I guess it's only enough to look at the per capita income in 'your' country, if you consider $1000/month 'barely surviving'

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyomkippur4831210.html

"Over 400,000 families in Israel suffer from "nutritional insecurity," a euphemistic term for "hunger." 28% of Israeli citizens, or 1,600,000 people are living in poverty. Among them are more than 600,000 hungry children. "

You only believe what's convenient for you right?

tsedek said...

do you know what my monthly salary is (if i get paid) ?
it's not even $300 and i am the only source of income for my family now.


We're in competition now who's more poor? I work 3 jobs, AlGhaliboon. 3 jobs and am barely able to keep my head above water. Do you work 3 jobs?

we'd be on the streets and SOMEHOW I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE IN SUCH A DESPERATE SITUATION.

Don't be too sure....

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

Tsedek, that Mosque was actually rebuilt after the war, as are many others being rebuilt. OUR RELIGION COMES BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE. Not something you would understand, especially that you defend the immoral terrorist army called the "IDF" (that D is ironic since none of "israel's" wars have been "defensive").

But since you insist your most moral army in the world does not target places of worship i can only oblige.

In SRIFA there is practically nothing left standing, let alone a MOSQUE.

In YATER we downed one of your helicopters in retaliation to your terrorist attacks on our MOSQUES as you can see here:

Action

Reaction

SO YOUR MYTHS ARE NO LONGER WORKING.

In 1967 it was "israel" that attacked. THANK YOU again for proving that you are no different than the 'radicals' that you claim you are different from. In 1967 there was NO Arab attack UNTIL "israel" bombarded Egyptian airfields. Now not even your officials claim the Arab countries attacked first, they call their aggression 'pre-emptive' attack. Wake up smell the hummus.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

By the way here's a little something i forgot to link to:
Click

and the beirut synagogue was, btw, bombarded by 'israel'.

again you show your 'true colours' tsedek. well done.

كلّ يوم عاشوراء، كلّ أرض كربلاء said...

"Do you work 3 jobs?"

I wish I could. Only that there are no jobs and if I have this one then I am thankful to God for it because there are those who don't even have that.

You are too desperate to prove that you are 'oppressed' and 'downtrodden' just like us (we have been impoverished 'thanks to" your numerous 'civilized' wars and bombardments against us since 1948 and especially after the 60s), to dilute the actions of your terrorist state, which you appear to be (from the above posts) to be in full support of.

But the good thing is (bad thing for you) i am here to stay and so are millions of us, nothing will move us from here, not poverty nor anythign else, we the people of JABAL AMEL (mount Amel) are STUBBORN and the day will come when you will have to submit to the conditions i highlighted above to keeks, or else LEAVE TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM. I can assure you of that.

And i am sure by now you know we do not break the PROMISES we make.

lastly, unfortunately i do not think you are up to any serious discussion neither on Islam nor anything else. So I guess i will bow out of this 'discussion.'

Keeks if you would like to talk you can email me ( muqawamaislamiyya@yahoo.com ) or post on my blog. if you would like to.

Nizar it was nice discussing things with you. thanks for accommodating my posts.

wassalam

tsedek said...

AlGhaliboon: no place is holy when its being used for war-strategies or other means of helping in the attacks on israel. That mosque was rebuilt within 3 months? Great job, only the person visiting there says differently. But, never mind.

yep, israel attacked first, never heard of those egyptians standing on the border, the UN that got sent away by them to make it easier, the threats uttered by ALL arabic leaders that 'now israel will be wiped off the map" - you think israel sit and wait to see that happen? no threat and mobilization to fortify that threat and nothing would have happened. Why do you see only ONE way, AlGhaliboon? Can you really fool yourself?

tsedek said...

You are too desperate to prove

forget it. i tell it like it is, and for the rest you can do with it as you want. interprete everything your way - is not my problem.

tsedek said...

But the good thing is (bad thing for you) i am here to stay and so are millions of us, nothing will move us from here, not poverty nor anythign else, we the people of JABAL AMEL (mount Amel) are STUBBORN and the day will come when you will have to submit to the conditions i highlighted above to keeks, or else LEAVE TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM. I can assure you of that.

nobody WANTS to move you. That's all in your head. the only ones that will move you is you if you keep on chosing the path of violence: which is your prerogative of course. The only thing I can feel sorry about is that so many people that do NOT chose to walk that path will -as always- become victims of your absolete ideology that holds no place for reason or respect for human lifes.

wassalam.

lennybruce said...

I know I am very late to this post and the response has been fantastic but here's my 2 cents worth.

It is an excellent article Nizo and captures in quite a focused way the crux of the issue. When I read Tsedek's comment refering to the opst from an American-Jewish woman in Iran (I would love to know her and talk to her about her experiences sp I will def check out her blog) I of course thought about my experiences in Malaysia where they promote something they call Islam Hadari - progressive or open Islam or something like that.

Over the past four years I have spent many many months there on six or seven trips. Much of that time I spend with the Malay family of my partner - a very huge family covering the gamut from modern religious to very traditional religious (mostly the older ones) and modern secular younger people. Although after all my years in Israel I had already a warm feeling towards Islam my more intimate interactions now have only served to cement that feeling.

Like the woman in Iran I too hear sometimes very extreme things about the West, about Israel or about Jews but I hear the same about Muslims and Arab countries from westerners so no one seems to have a monopoly on that.

And to be honest, the warmth and welcomeness I feel in Malaysia, at all times but especially during Eid, far surpasses what even my family or the average openminded American family I believe would project to Muslims.

And now that I am rambling on about it, the mother of my friend, an old extremley religious (pious and spiritual would be better terms) is so wonderful. When she learned I was Jewish and American Israeli I know she wasnt happy at first. It was her religious beliefs - opening her home to all during Eid (when I met her for the first time) - that led her to put those things aside; because of her beliefs, not despite them. By the end of that visit, she even took my hand, blessed me and said I now have a 2nd mother in Malaysia.

So, there is that Islam as well. How do we, open, loving and accepting people of all faiths find each other and grow in numbers to outnumber those who want no openness and no tolerance.

Nizo said...

Lennybruce, your comments are always welcome whether the post is old or new. Thank you for sharing your experience in Malaysia.

I actually spent a whole month there last July, I went to Kota Kinabalu, KL, Langkawi. People are indeed friendly and approachable there, no doubt. I was at the Borders bookshop in KL looking for books on the emergence of China, when an old man tapped me on the shoulder. He recommended a couple of books and then we ended up engaging in a 5-hour conversation that I found extremely enriching. He happened to be a Professor of Chinese studies, and he was from the Chinese minority himself. We discussed China, and moved on to Islam. We spoke about Islam-Hadari and how benevolent it is vis a vis non-Muslim minorities. He also expressed fears similiar to mine regarding less open ideologies that are being imported from the middle east.

I think we're in agreement that intolerance can be found in any religion. On the topic of sexual orientation, the prejudice of the church is legendary. Thankfuly, none of the countries in the west are theocracies, which allows for the LGBT movement to fight to undo years of prejudice and bigotry. As for the middle east or Islamic countries, the trend is going against the LGBT community. Iraq was a *relatively* liberal country and didn't have an anti-sodomy law on its books. If gays were harassed it was due to the culture rather than a specific law. Now, I guarantee you that whatever comes out of Sunni or Shiite lawmakers will be much more similar to Iran's policy towards homosexuals which is Hanging or mandatory sex-change ops.

Which leads me to believe that even if on an individual level, some muslims might have the potential to be progressive on gays, women, Israel etc.. the *general* trend is not towards openness. The lady you talked about evolved in her judgement when she saw the Israeli-American-Jewish label take the form of a human being for the first time. She had to peel back years worth of social conditioning. That is my assumption of course, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I had my own impressions about Jews until I met them in the flesh (you can decipher that one any way you wish :). It demystifies and humanizes the other party.

I find myself asking the same million dollar question.. the moderates are out there.. how do we harness their energy.. ?

tsedek said...

We beat it into them?

LOL

(sorry, really - honest, but I that's what I reached when I started thinking about your last question, Nizo *blush* )

Nizo said...

Tse.. pass me the vodka and no one gets hurt...

Anonymous said...

You....... remain.................... a GAY

Anonymous said...

Why you deformed creation of a goat's cunt!!!!

Nancy been trying to communicate with you for MONTHS! Missed you terribly.

Welcome back.

Howie

Anonymous said...

Nancy...

Well...I read over the discussion. Geez...never heard that debate before...it is good to know y'all figured out out while I was gone...Nice job. Very impressive.

Still looking people up? Both at work and at home?

Howie

Anonymous said...

Nancy...

Correction...

LOCKING people up...not LOOKING people up.

Howie

Sheri Oz said...

I am very pleased to have just discovered your blog. Do you also have twitter or FB accounts so that I can follow you there?

Etrnal Saloon said...

Eternal Salon and Loft is conveniently located at 19063 Lake Road in Rocky River. At Eternal Salon and Loft we offer a broad range of beauty services including hair, skin, and nails. Our highly trained professionals will transform you and ensure that you are a show stopper everywhere you go.

Salon In Lakewood Ohio
Salon In Bay Village Ohio
Salon In Westlake Ohio
Salon In North Olmsted Ohio
Salon in Rocky River