Saturday, March 28, 2009

מכתב גלוי לאסמעיל הנייה

מכתב גלוי לאסמעיל הנייה מפלוני אלמוני פלסטיני

אדוני,

החלטתי לכתוב לך בעברית כדי למנוע משכנינו היהודים להתלונן על כך שאנחנו תמיד זוממים מאחורי גבם.

כמי שישב שלוש שנים בכלא אצלם, אתה בוודאי תהיה מסוגל לקרוא את מכתבי.

אז תרשה לי לקפוץ ישר אל תוך הנושא: אני מבקש ממך לא לשחרר את גלעד שליט; לא תמורת אלף מאסירינו או מאה אלף או אפילו מליון.

תן לי להסביר:

כפי שאתה יודע היטב, לא היו לעם שלנו הרבה ניצחונות, ואני מודאג שחטיפתו של שליט תהיה הניצחון האחרון לזמן רב. מחר כשהם יגלו טכנולוגיה שתגלה את מנהרותינו מתחת לגבול, את מי נוכל לחטוף?
מה זה יעשה לאגו הלאומי שלנו?

אל תגיד לי שנשגר קסאמים עליהם יומם ולילה. הרי, אחרי שהם הרסו את המסגדים ובתי הספר, איפה נוכל להסתיר את הרקטות שלנו?

ואל תגיד לי שאנחנו נחכה להם לבוא לעזה. תסתכל על מה שקרה בפעם האחרונה שהם ביקרו, הם באו ועזבו, אך לא השאירו לנו אפילו מרכבה הרוסה אחת! איזה אנשים יש בעולם הזה? וואלה מעולם לא פגשתי קמצנים כמו היהודים האלו.
אז עכשיו איך נוכיח לילדינו שאנחנו לוחמים אמיצים ומנוסים ?

אדוני, האם אתה זוכר, שהיהודים היו נ
וסעים באוטובוסים בלי לדעת מתי הם יתפוצצו? וואלה היו ימים! היינו הורגים לפחות תריסר ביום. אך עכשיו, מאז שהם בנו את הקיר הגזעני שלהם, לא נותנים לנו להפגיז אפילו אוטובוס ריק! איך השאהידים שלנו יעלו לאללה עכשיו?

לפחות הם יכלו לשלוח לנו אוטובוס מלא אנשים שהם רוצים לסלק, למשל: משה קצב ,ראאד סלאח ,טלי פחימה, ומיקי בוגנים המציק מהפרסומת של מחסני תאורה.
ככה הוא באמת יכול לומר "באתי נדלקתי".

נו, אדוני, האם אתה עכשיו רואה שאם נחזיר להם את שליט, לא יהיה לנו שום דבר ללגלג עליהם בו?

זה לא מצער, אדוני, שאחרי 60 שנים מהמשחק הזה, נשאר בידיינו רק כרטיס אחד?

כרטיס בשם גלעד




- - -
** 22-March - translated into English by popular demand**


An Open Letter to Ismael Haniyeh from a Palestinian John Doe

Sir,

I've decided to write to you in Hebrew in order to prevent our Jewish neighbours from complaining that we're constantly scheming behind their backs.

As someone who has spent three years of your life in their jails, surely you'll be able to read my letter.

So allow me to jump straight into the heart of the matter: I ask of you not to release Gilad Shalit; not in exchange for a thousand of our prisoners, a hundred thousand or even a million.

Allow me to explain:

As you know pretty well, a nation of many victories we are not, and I am worried that Shalit's kidnapping will be our last victory for a long time to come. Tomorrow when they discover a technology that reveals our tunnels under the border who will we be able to kidnap?
What will this do to our national ego?

Do not tell me that we'll lob rockets at them day and night. After they destroyed the mosques and schools, where will we hide our rockets?

And do not tell me that we'll wait for them to come to Gaza. Look what happened the last time they came for a visit, They came, they left, but single destroyed merkava tank they didn't leave us! What kind of people are there in this world, verily, I have never met people as stingy as these Jews. So, now, how de we show our children what real fighters we are?

Sir, do you remember, when the Jews rode on buses without knowing when they were going to blow up? Wallah, those were the days! We used to kill a dozen a day. But now, since they built their racist wall, they don't allow us to bomb a single bus, not even an empty one! Now, how will our martyrs ascend to Allah?

At least they could send us a bus filled with people they want to eliminate, for example, Moshe Katsav, Raad Salah, Tali Fachima, and that annoying Miki Buganim from the commercial for Machsanei Teura. Now he can really say "I came, I was lit up".

So, Sir, do you now see that if we return Shalit to them we will have no one left with to taunt them with?

Isn't it lamentable Sir, that after 60 years of this game, we're only left with one card in our hands?

A card named Gilad.

231 comments:

1 – 200 of 231   Newer›   Newest»
Aviv said...

מעולה, התגעגעתי כל כך, אבל אני לא בטוח שאני מסכים שהפלסטינים הולכים ומאבדים קלפי מיקוח.

מספר תיקונים זריזים:
פלסטיני ולא פלסטינאי (אם תרצה, אוכל להסביר מדוע... גם יש שגיאה בכותרת החדשה של הבלוג, חסרה ו' במילה "מונטריאול")
היהודים היו נוסעים
לומר "באתי נדלקתי", בלי "את"
כרטיס שקוראים לו גלעד

Nizo said...

תודה על התיקונים יא ג'מיל

אז תסביר לי מדוע פלסטיני ולא פלסטינאי

?

שרוליק said...

מדהים!

Nobody said...

And what was Haniyeh's response to all this?

Indian said...

Translation, please!

Howie said...

Well...I did not know whether to laugh or cry...so obviously a very good job.

Nizo...here is the highest compliment I can make to a social commentator; I can never be sure where you will stand on a given issue. To me, that means you look at things relatively objectively and try to ferret out the truth, rather than preaching a given agenda. Few do that...

Very well done

somebody said...

תודה לך nobody

Nizo said...

שרוליק and Howie,
Thanks :)

Nobody and Somebody,
Do not underestimate my ability to influence Haniyeh. It was the spirit of my letter that inspired him to harden his position. I disagree with Aviv above, after Hamas gives up Shalit what else do they have to bargain with? They're completely isolated.. despite all the sympathy they reaped from the last bombardment. In fact I'm worried that they will pavlovanically link the bombardment with the relief funds. Every time they feel like re-painting their mosques in a new shade of green, they lob a couple of rockets at Sderot and presto.. no need to shell out cash pay for demolition or re-building.

Indian, will do when I have the time. I haven't had sex in 2 weeks and so lining up a hairy behind is a more pressing concern at the moment. If I don't release my seed within 24 hours I become violent and that's not in the best interest of this city and its inhabitants.

Nizo said...

*shell out cash to pay

Aviv said...

לניזו החרמן, בקצרה:

"פלסטינאי" ובמיוחד הכתיבה הישנה "פלשתינאי" היא מילה שגזורה מהשם "פלשתינה-א"י", היא המנדט הבריטי. לכן התואר "פלשתינאי" מתייחס לכל מי שהיה נתין של המנדט הבריטי בפלשתינה-א"י, ערבים ויהודים גם יחד.

התואר "פלסטיני" גזור מ"פלסטין" בערבית ומתייחסת ללאום שהגדירו עצמם בשנות השישים ערבושים כמוך.
=P

Nizo said...

ערבוש יפתח לכ טיזאק

:)

Mo-ha-med said...

Took me forever to get through but was worth it. :)

On a serious note..
Negotiations are about "we talk, you give up something, I give up something, and we both leave more or less happy (or not too aggravated)".
At some point someone changed that definition into "you give up everything you have, and then we can talk and I'll figure out if I'll give you something - or not".

The unspoken party of this definition is "agree to the above or we'll be bomb the living shit out of you".

Think US pre-requisites for negotiations with Iran (though that might be changing now); think Israel prerequisites to talk with Hamas. Even if Hamas stops lobbing rockets, recognises Israel, and promises to celebrate Purim every year, there is no guarantee that Israel will give them anything (stop bombing them, removing the blockade, allowing the Palestinians to establish this 'State' thing)..

In the US case with Iran, I doubt they'll bomb them any time soon. Israel, on the other hand, has already tried / is conducting / violent attacks on Gaza. And their hostage is still kidnapped.
Somebody needs to inform them that their own benefit might be in a negotiated settlement after all.

And more generally, I'm bored of the shalit affair. It would however be far more entertaining if it were Miki Boganim. Aah, the jokes..

Nizo said...

"Negotiations are about "we talk, you give up something, I give up something, and we both leave more or less happy (or not too aggravated)".

In the absence of goodwill, negotiations and the results thereof depend on the power dynamic at hand and the cards that each partner holds.

On s'entendthat there's no goodwill between the two parties here... So it's a 0-sum game.

Israel is trying to get Shalit for the cheapest price (how typicaly Jewish) and Hamas, the quintessential Arab kiosk owner in his dusty Souk, displays the same trinket for 1,000 days in the hope of selling it for the highest price possible.

In the end, when Hamas gives up Shalit they'll have nothing to negotiate with.

Israel has outmanoeuvred us with the Wall and verily I say that Sharon is the most brilliant strategist to have ever lived. Thanks to Arik and those who followed his line, and the Palestinians who walked into the trap, we now have a situation where Abbas needs the IDF to keep the Hamas cells from mushrooming.

Israel doesn't even need to destroy Hamas, just keep it burning on a slow flame, like a pot of Cholent, only there's no Shabbat here, this will stay burning for a long time.. in the meantime they'll eat up the West Bank with more settlements..

But no one listens to me.. My Falastinian brothers want to be macho men and fight and die for Falasteen and Allah, and the Arabs, Iranians and Europeans cheer them on from behind the safety of their TV screens.

Wallah I tell them, self-demilitarize, resist the occupation in non-violent means, make this a civil rights struggle, hold hunger strikes, marches etc.. appeal to the Israeli left, (which was decimated when Hamas bombed the buses and when the Palestinians cheered rather than condemned).

I don't say this because I'm some delusional peacenik, I frankly don't care if Shalit is fed to the lions in the Gaza zoo.

I'm just disgusted at the way we have mismanaged this conflict from day 1. I want to live to see Falasteen, and I want to be able to set up a men's only resort on the Gaza beach, but our collective stupidity and mulish stubbornness stands in the way of my dreams.

Aviv said...

Mo, by parallel, do you honestly think Palestinian peace-processing efforts '91-present can be characterized as being in good faith, and more so than Israeli efforts?

It's true Israel uses force as leverage. Palestinians use terrorism.

Abu Sa'ar said...

I think you're overestimating the brilliance of Sharon's strategy. Tactics was more his forte and he went veggy before the plan could be completed. Abbas can't hold back the Hamas tide for long. I reckon a great number of people in WB will have their knees shot off (if they're lucky) in the next few years.

This whole thing will get really ugly when Hamas'll do something extraordinarily stupid, like use real chemical weapons. They are not that difficult to make for a suicidal someone with access to the 'net. Such an escalation is only a matter of time.

Howie said...

Mo-ha-med...

"Even if Hamas stops lobbing rockets, recognises Israel, and promises to celebrate Purim every year, there is no guarantee that Israel will give them anything (stop bombing them, removing the blockade, allowing the Palestinians to establish this 'State' thing).."

To begin with...how can we ever trust people whose own profit is a hypocrite? Look...in typical Arab manner...you have tried to manipulate us with the way you syllabilize his name (MPBUH)...

It is Mo-ham-ed...Now they guy preaches against eating swine...yet it is selling it with his very name Mo ham...you know the subtle message...especially to American blacks..."eat mo ham"...

So with this kind of back door manuvering...obviously aimed at getting Jews to break with the commands of God...how can you trust you sneaky bastards to ever negotiate in good faith.

And on a far less serious note...I would say you message quoted above is exactly the opposite of the way most Jews feel. However, Nizo is correct, the second intifada pretty much cleared out about 1-2 generations of goodwill.

Howie said...

I meant prophet...profit...him...some kind of Freudian slip there!!!

Maybe a prophet making a profit selling mo ham

rozi said...

my understanding of ivrit is nonexistent, for now at least.

but is this the follow up to the "replace arab leaders with goats" post, but with israeli leaders? i'd like to read it!

Nizo said...

I translated it into English for you Indian and Rozi

Anonymous said...

Yes, Mohamed, but it's strange to compare US and Israeli strategy, since their enemies are so different.Iran is not an easy target, obviously the US has to think twice before they do anything.. Since the Israelis don't really suffer from their wars with the palestinians, they don't have to be careful like the americans, who did suffer greatly in Iraq.If you ask me, the palestinians should simply stop negotiate about two states, Israel is too strong. They should just say : we want to become Israeli citizen with equal rights. That might force Israel to get its act together re the settlement.

Mo-ha-med said...

Why a zero-sum game? those get their soldier, those get their prisoners. It sounds like a win-win to me.

I give much less credit to the wall than you do, Nizo, either for stopping suicide bombers (Lisa G can give you a much better explanation regarding how it's not the wall but other security measures that are to thank) or in establishing facts on the ground.
I always say that the settlements are those facts on the ground; and that time is 100% in the Israelis' favour.

Aviv:
I don't think there was ever much good faith anywhere. Both parties tried to screw the other. The Israelis won, with that roll of toilet paper we call the Oslo agreements. :)

In a nutshell - we can talk about it someday - i think that Hamas is turning the clock back to 1989.

Howie: Yes. We aim to feed you ham. But given that we can't eat it either, it seems our strategy is very Shimshonesque, isn't it?

Re: the 'opposite of the way most Jews feel':
I'm not surprised. Israelis feel they can't trust the Palestinians; well, surprise, it goes the other way too.

Tamar Orvell said...

Indian and Rozi and me when the language is other than English or Hebrew... Google to the rescue. Copy the URL of this or any page, and paste it into "http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en&sl=el&tl=en#" and then choose the start and end language... Voila. Your translation (pretty close to it).

Nobody said...

Think US pre-requisites for negotiations with Iran (though that might be changing now); think Israel prerequisites to talk with Hamas. Even if Hamas stops lobbing rockets, recognises Israel, and promises to celebrate Purim every year, there is no guarantee that Israel will give them anything (stop bombing them, removing the blockade, allowing the Palestinians to establish this 'State' thing)..

If Palestinians would have not lobbed rockets into Israel from Gaza and recognized Israel's existence, Israel would have not imposed the blockade. However, I think we should once go again back to Hamas manifesto and Hadith of the Gharkad tree, because this is not even about Israel's existence. It's dishonest to claim such a thing that this was about Hamas rejection of Israel's existence. Or to suggest that Hamas was anywhere close to consider start celebrating Purim.

Article Seven:

. . .

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Nobody said...

It's also absolutely clear from this passage that Hamas view themselves as part of the same movement that staged revolt in Hama, assassinated Sadat and tried to assassinate Nasser. This is a movement that aims at taking the whole region, if not the whole world, under its control. Israel is a very small part of these people's game.

Nobody said...

Anonymous said...

Yes, Mohamed, but it's strange to compare US and Israeli strategy, since their enemies are so different.Iran is not an easy target, obviously the US has to think twice before they do anything.. Since the Israelis don't really suffer from their wars with the palestinians, they don't have to be careful like the americans, who did suffer greatly in Iraq.


May a suicide bomber bomb the bus you take to go to your work. When they find your fucking stupid head on one side of the street and your legs on the other, then not you, but your parents may get some idea what Israelis went through during Oslo.

Abu Sa'ar said...

NB -

Or as Nietzsche said about Israel -

מה שלא הורג אותך, מחזק אותך. מה שהורג אותך, מחזק את אמא.

:)

Nobody said...

Ha Ha Ha

I remember one day in Jerusalem when they bombed two or three buses in quick succession and people simply stopped using public transport. All buses was empty. Amazing. Everybody was either moving on foot or taking taxes. At a bus station a person asked me when the next bus should pass by. And I told him: if they did not bomb it on the way, should be in 10 minutes. And the whole station was rolling on the floor laughing. These people are made of steel.

Nobody said...

taxes=taxis

Nobody said...

By the way, I like this part

. . . and that annoying Miki Buganim from the commercial for Machsanei Teura. Now he can really say "I came, I was lit up".

:D :D

Anonymous said...

What not kills you, strenghtens your mother? Abu Saar, you Israelis are hilarious. It's like those t shirt you IDF guys keep, I read about it in the Haaretz: pictures of a pregnant palestinian woman at gunpoint where it says "two deaths in one." Or a boy running with a text under "don't try to run, you'll die tired"
That's an improvement, I say. Much wittier than the old tired "kill all arabs"
:D :D Helen in London

Nobody said...

That's an improvement, I say. Much wittier than the old tired "kill all arabs"
:D :D Helen in London


Helen

Regardless of these t-shirts episode, Israelis don't run around shouting "kill all Arabs". Neither they vote for parties that proudly feature this stuff as part of their official manifesto. And on a bit different note, I would advise you to exercise a bit of caution with this moral superiority thing despite the intense pleasure it brings to you. You probably notice during your experience on this thread that these pleasures often happen to be short lived and even monkeying after my ":D :D" signature may not help.

שרוליק said...

"Indian, will do when I have the time. I haven't had sex in 2 weeks and so lining up a hairy behind is a more pressing concern at the moment. If I don't release my seed within 24 hours I become violent and that's not in the best interest of this city and its inhabitants."


I wonder if the translation is Nizo's way of telling us that he got his hairy behind and Canada is safe for another 48 hours.

On a serious note, I think Abu Saar you are over-estimating the strength of the Hamas, I agree with Nizo that the noose is tightening around their necks.

Anonymous said...

Well, thank you for that warning, Don Corleone......But what could you do to me? Insults I can take, especially from a guy that freely uses expression he doesn't quiet understand, like the Stockholm Syndrome. Clueless, careless, bored, meaningless existense.....You've already said most of it, dear. :D
And thank you for showing these things to me! I like them... It's one useful thing I've learned from discussing with you. :D :D :D
Helen

Anonymous said...

Well, thank you for that warning, Don Corleone......But what could you do to me? Insults I can take, especially from a guy that freely uses expression he doesn't quiet understand, like the Stockholm Syndrome. Clueless, careless, bored, meaningless existense.....You've already said most of it, dear. :D
And thank you for showing these things to me! I like them... It's one useful thing I've learned from discussing with you. :D :D :D
Helen

Nobody said...

Don't worry, Helen. We are not yet over with this. I won't let you go without supplying you with a few more bits of useful information. I am a bit busy in the next few hours, but I won't keep you waiting for too long.

Nizo said...

שרוליק said...
"I wonder if the translation is Nizo's way of telling us that he got his hairy behind and Canada is safe for another 48 hours."

It was a horrible and humiliating lay.. My adventures took me to the house of a married man whose wife and kids were away on vacation. He asked me to dress up in his wife's lingerie and let's just say that pistachio green and fuchsia stripes do not go with my complexion. Not to mention that I'm a couple of sizes smaller than that cow.

Then in the middle of Act 1, his brother in law comes for a brief visit to borrow the chainsaw.. So I was locked in the bedroom for the longest 30 minutes of my life while I listened to fierce chainsaw sounds coming from the garage below. I thought of escaping through the bathroom window, but my clothes were in the salon and it was a conservative neighbourhood where the sight of a hairy Arab man gallivanting in the pastel-coloured lingerie of an obese woman would have raised too many eyebrows.

שרוליק said...

חחחחחחחחחחחח

Anonymous said...

Nizo, I love you. Seriously. Your hilarious stories regardless if they're real or invented makes me literally wipe of tears.
You should start writing comedy plays. Hope you and your nephew are well.
Helen in London

G said...

Nizo,
Hilarious story, you should consider adding the word "No" to your vocabulary. Quite a useful word, at times.

By the way, did you get your Act II, III afterwards? Don't tell me that at least for a moment, it didn't cross your mind that your "buddy" and his relative are actually crazy Zionists (we know what they are capable of), and that they are coming for you with that chainsaw...:)

Oh, and I want to contribute to the political discussion as well:
We are perfect; the Pal’s are to blame for everything. Can’t trust a people who don’t brush their teeth.

G

Indian said...

Nizo, shrewd analysis in your comment (especially the comment on Sharon being a brilliant strategist). However, that comment on not caring if Schalit is fed to the lions is very unlike you.

And for Christ's sake, stop being involved in extra-marital affairs. They will never leave their wives for you :)!

nominally challenged said...

The translator in me is forcing me to leave an irksome remark - 'nidlakti', apart from literally meaning 'I was lit up', also means 'I was turned on'. Sexually.

It is, in fact, the general revulsion generated by the thought of Miki Buganim being turned on which got a previous version of that ad banned from television, until they turned the dimmer switch in an anti-clockwise direction ...

|3run0 said...

The new banner for this blog is brilliant

Mo-ha-med said...

Nizo - I hate you. See, I was bored during a macroeconomics seminar, and I decided to check your blog. At the thought of you jumping out of a window in green lingerie was too much.. I tried - and failed - to block a laugh, which ended in a "PfffffffffHahahaSorryPfffff"!

Nobody, you disappoint me. First you go on a chicken and egg discussion. You can do better than that. Because it seems that Hamas followed occupation, and... oops! :)

And, Nobody, here are people running around shouting "kill the Arabs". Another testimony here.And on another occasion, here. And that's just what i remember.
The difference between you and I, however, is that I am willing to consider that you - sorry, they! what a slip! - represent a violent, hateful minority. You, on the other hand, paint everyone with the same brush.

And that's the best you could find to defend those hateful army soldiers? By saying "regardless of this t-shirts episode"? Come on. Say something more interesting. Enlighten us! What defense do you have for those t-shirts?

Pisa said...

Mo-ha-med said
"Because it seems that Hamas followed occupation, and... oops! :)"

Talking about eggs, chicken and occupation - please explain the pogrom in Casablanca in 1907, or the massacre in Hebron in 1929. Did the arabs use a crystal ball to foresee the occupation? For you, history begins in 1948!

Nobody said...

And, Nobody, here are people running around shouting "kill the Arabs". Another testimony here.And on another occasion, here. And that's just what i remember.
The difference between you and I, however, is that I am willing to consider that you - sorry, they! what a slip! - represent a violent, hateful minority. You, on the other hand, paint everyone with the same brush.


Mo-ha-med

There is a difference between having extremist groups which exist in every country and having a nation that overwhelmingly votes for a movement with an outright genocidal manifesto. Would a typical Israeli run around shouting "kill all Arabs"? No? Would your typical Palestinian? Your typical Palestinian is very likely to be a Hamas supporter.


Would you expect a Jewish university organize an arts exhibition dedicated to bombing of Sbarro Pizza? Can be Jews so imaginative as to paint stains of blood in red on the floor and walls and scatter pieces of Pizza all around? Would local artists contribute paintings commemorating this glorious event? Would typical Jewish families come with their children to see it? Or maybe you would expect the mayor of Tel Aviv to visit and give a speech?

I was amazed by this t-shirts thing. Still want to know who was a genius who invented them. However, you compare things that can't be compared...

Nobody said...

Nobody, you disappoint me. First you go on a chicken and egg discussion. You can do better than that. Because it seems that Hamas followed occupation, and... oops! :)

There is no a chicken and egg question here. Israel got out of Gaza and the only thing that the Palestinians had to do was to pull the strip out of conflict. Even a simple decision to move the armed struggle entirely to the West Bank could do. But it's one of those occasions about which it can be said that the nature of a scorpion is to bite, even if it comes at the cost of its own life.

Neither, there is any chicken and egg question in say Lebanon. Shortly after the Syrians were out, Israel turned to Lebanon and offered and negotiate a security arrangement before pulling its forces out. As one of the Lebanese leaders said - we are not in the business of providing security to Israel. Israel unilaterally pulled out strictly along the line drawn by the UN. This was not enough. Then came a claim for the Shebaa farms. A raid after a raid followed. At the peak of this hutzpa these people crossed the border, killed and took with them bodies of three soldiers, ambushed a rescue force killing a few more and on top of this shelled towns along the border as a diversion tactic injuring civilians. Then Israel finally lost patience and came for a visit. And yet this was not enough for these people.

And Israel said - no problem with Shebaa. Came and negotiate. Even an armistice will do. But no one can give you the heights unless you sign something that you promise they won't be used for raids and attacks. So what did these people do? They decided that there also want an area inside Israel outside the Shebaa farms that they reason also belongs to them. But to negotiate something permanent and even temporary they are not going to do, just as Hamas is not going to negotiate anything beyond temporary ceasefire, they just want us to keep the borders open for the time being before their ceasefire expires.

You know the common view has never been that Arabs are smart people. However it's a common view that Jews are smart people. I would like to confirm to you, as an Israeli to an Arab - the common view is right. We are not that stupid !!!

Pisa said...

Hey Nobody

"I was amazed by this t-shirts thing. Still want to know who was a genius who invented them"

You know, the way the world sees us israelis/jews is quite weird - like we're some kind of monolithic Stonehenge-style rock. When a pregnant woman is killed by a muslim, he's just an extremist. When (and if! haven't seen any proof of it yet) an israeli soldier wears a "pregnant woman" t-shirt, ALL the israelis/jews are racists and the IDF cold-blooded murderers. Please stop apologizing for some extremists - is the muslim world apologizing to us for their extremists?

Nobody said...

Please stop apologizing for some extremists - is the muslim world apologizing to us for their extremists?

I am not apologizing for anything and even if I do, it's none of your business.

Nizo said...

"You know, the way the world sees us israelis/jews is quite weird - like we're some kind of monolithic Stonehenge-style rock. When a pregnant woman is killed by a muslim, he's just an extremist."


Pisa, there are people who view Muslims as a monolithic Stonehenge-style rock as well. I say this as someone who gets mistaken for a Muslim all the time.

I have never heard a positive association when it comes to Muslims here in the West, while with Jews the picture is actually more nuanced.. With the Muslims it's disgust while with the Jews it's envy ("they have all the money, the education etc...")

Pisa said...

Nobody
Sorry if I've misinterpreted your words. I don't want you to be angry with me again, but I have to say that when you post comments on a blog where everybody can read them, then they are everybody's business...;)

Nizo
I guess you're right - people like sticking labels on everything and everybody.
זה לא הולך. יש לי כאב ראש ואני לא יכולה להתרכז, אז אכתוב את זה בעברית.
מה שאתה לא מבין זה שלהדבקת תוויות יש משמעות מיוחדת ומצמררת עבור העם ההיהודי - זה בדרך כלל נגמר בפוגרום. סליחה שאנחנו פרנואידים, אבל יש לנו סיבה טובה. שני ההורים שלי עברו את השואה, שניהם ניצלו הודות לנוצרים פשוטים וטובי לב, וכמו ילדי ניצולי שואה רבים אחד הדברים החשובים ביותר שלמדתי זה לא להדביק תוויות על אנשים. אפילו לא על גרמנים! ואפילו לא על מוסלמים, ולא על פלסטינים - וזה נורא קשה כשכל הזמן אלה מכריזים בקולי קולות שהם רוצים להרוג אותי. הציל אותי מוסלמי בשם עלי אתרז - שמאלני מדי לטעמי, אבל בחור חכם שמוכיח כי אפשר אחרת. אפשר להיות מוסלמי וגם אנושי וגם לחיות במאה ה-21. אז יש תקווה. ויש גם את ניצו וסנדמנקי, שמראים לי איך נראה העולם מהצד השני.

Most people would call someone like you "a secular muslim"...

shlemazl said...

Palestinians always overplay their hand. Like when they bombed Israel a few years back on a daily basis they got themselves "Defensive shield" and ended up walled off. Then they started to lob missiles from Gaza. Again not every now and again but every day so eventually they got themselves "Cast Lead" and better border control around Gaza.

Shalit is unlikely to be alive; I doubt gentlemen from Hamas would have been able to keep their hands off Jewish blod. Olmert would have released hundreds of prisoners; Bibi is unlikely to release anyone. Overplayed.

Abu Sa'ar said...

Pisa -

Foolish people. Nizo is nominally Melkite :)

Nobody said...

Shalit is unlikely to be alive;

You may be right by the way. Given our experience with the Lebanese, if they don't let the Red Cross to visit or something, the prisoner is probably dead.

Anonymous said...

"I have never heard a positive association when it comes to Muslims here in the West" Nizo, it's true that there's a lot of unfair stereotyping re muslims, simply because people don't know enough. They only see the bad things about Islam. However, there are some positive assocciations as well, like hospitality, openess etc.
I guess it's also depends which western country we're talking about here.
Mohamed, it's all your fault for reading this blog during a seminar, especially when it's something as interesting macroeconomics :D
Helen in London

Nizo said...

Helen my dear Helen,
Where in the West is Islam associated with openness?

What I will give you is that the European views of Muslims are generally more nuanced than North American views.. partly due to exposure..

Anonymous said...

You're right, not openess. Hospitality then.:)
Helen

Nizo said...

I think they keep Shalit in the basement of the Shifa hospital or some other place that's "theoretically" un-touchable by the IDF/IAF..

If Shalit is indeed dead, Hamas better get ready for a major spanking.. I wouldn't be surprised if Bibi tries to hit Mashaal in Damascus..

Anonymous said...

Hamas and a whole lot of other civilians, too.
Helen

Mo-ha-med said...

Helen
Damn right interesting. It was titled "monopoly power and endogenous product variety" - a sequence of words that are meaningful individually but make no bloody sense altogether... words which, btw, were never repeated again in the following 120 minutes. Torture, I tell ya'. Unavoidably, I needed my Nizo fix.

Pisa
Casablanca 1907? You really had me laughing (not in class this time, no, thank God...) We were talking about Hamas, dear. You're blaming someone that happened in Casablanca in 1907 on Hamas? Why not the Russian pogroms while you're at it?
Oh wait - the enemy isn't Hamas - it's all those Arabs, those Muslims, those ragheads, those horrible people who aren't...
Who aren't exactly like you, right?

Pathetic.

"When a pregnant woman is killed by a muslim, he's just an extremist."
Huh? What kind of media do you follow, Al-Manar?
When a child throws a stone at an IDF soldier, he's labeled a terrorist. Let's not flip things around, shall we.

Oh, and I hope you don't actually think Sandmonkey is your average Muslim - I think he'd be the first to disagree!
And Nizo, fyi, comes from a Christian family.

Ali Eteraz is an interesting choice. Perhaps somewhat beyond your cognitive skills, but very interesting choice nevertheless.
(oh! My God! Another Arab who reads Hebrew! They want to kill us all!!)

Nobody
the people who shout "Kill the Arabs" are now beautifully represented in your new Minister of Foreign Affairs. Yes, people often scream 'mavet la-aravim' in Yisrael Beitenu rallies, you know that.
When an extremist party entered the government in Austria - remember Georg Haider? - the EU imposed sanctions on them. And they didn't want to kill anyone. Israel is getting away with electing someone on an openly racist platform..
As I wrote - the average Israeli is now more Lieberman than Rabin. It's really sad, but the sooner we all realise it, the better.

And - "pull Gaza out of the conflict"? Life isn't a board game, where the plastic horses sit on the side when they're out.

First, Gaza is still under occupation. Just yesterday a UN-OCHA report was released - the army confiscated the jam, biscuits, and announced that tea and date bars are going on the forbidden items list.

And, assuming it had indeed been left by the Israelis.. how do i explain that...

Let me put in simpler terms. If I tie up both your hands, shove you on the floor, and stand on your chest. Can you picture it? Good.
(no, nothing erotic comes afterwards... :)))
Now imagine I untie your left hand - but I'll say, "hey! Don't try to push me off you with your left hand! Get it out of the conflict!" I'm guessing there's no way you'll nicely put your hand back in your pocket, will you?
Well, same. You can't expect a Palestinian city that's been (liberated/evacuated/freed/choose your favourite word!)to sit on the sidelines and watch the action, no??

Look, you gotta stop seeing things as "Palestinian action --> Israeli reaction". It's more complicated. You're too smart for an oversimplification like that.

Pisa said...

Mo-ha-med

There are so many things wrong with your comment, I don't know were to start.

"We were talking about Hamas, dear. You're blaming someone that happened in Casablanca in 1907 on Hamas?"

No. I'm blaming it on the arab/muslim leadership and their educational system (or lack of it). Hamas is just another tool of this leadership. Hatred of jews in the muslim world didn't start with Hamas, you know. Ask Ali Eteraz. Oh, and history didn't start in 1948!


"Oh wait - the enemy isn't Hamas - it's all those Arabs, those Muslims, those ragheads, those horrible people who aren't...
Who aren't exactly like you, right?"

If you really read hebrew, you should know that my first unbreakable rule is never put labels on people! Selective reading, dear?

"Oh, and I hope you don't actually think Sandmonkey is your average Muslim - I think he'd be the first to disagree!
And Nizo, fyi, comes from a Christian family."

Selective reading again. Maybe you need hebrew lessons? Or maybe it has something to do with those cognitive skills...

""When a pregnant woman is killed by a muslim, he's just an extremist."
Huh? What kind of media do you follow, Al-Manar?"

No, not Al-Manar. Mumbai media. You know, in India.

"As I wrote - the average Israeli is now more Lieberman than Rabin. It's really sad, but the sooner we all realise it, the better."

It is sad, I agree. Surprised? Me too! Though our reasons might be very different. You probably think that the average Israeli became more racist, while I think he became more realistic. I don't like Lieberman, but I like the alternatives even less.

And for the UN reports - is there anyone who actually still believes them?

Nobody said...

Mo-ha-med

I read through your long explanation of why Gaza should become South Lebanon and I could not find there even one single coherent argument.

And, assuming it had indeed been left by the Israelis.. how do i explain that...

Let me put in simpler terms. If I tie up both your hands, shove you on the floor, and stand on your chest.


Then maybe you should stop trying to kick me so I get a reason to untie you?

Well, same. You can't expect a Palestinian city that's been (liberated/evacuated/freed/choose your favourite word!)to sit on the sidelines and watch the action, no??

Would you expect me to sit and watch idly an outright genocidal movement whose vision of the future is based on squarely on my physical extermination, consolidating its control in Gaza?

By the way, I was once talking to Nizo about a possible alternative course of action in Gaza and as far as I could understand him there are none.

And stop dragging Lieberman everywhere. Lieberman has 14 mandates. The average Israeli votes for Kadima and Likud. And Lieberman may be extreme by Israeli standards, but in the Arab world such people are considered moderates. Lieberman is ready to cede control over the Arab part of Jerusalem, in a TV program I saw him interviewed he said that he has no objections in principle to going back all the way to 1967 borders. You are trying to draw parallels between Lieberman and Hamas, or something, but frankly there are none. You spend too much time reading Lisa Goldman's blog. I really wish you and your country to get to the point when you have fee elections in Egypt and people like Lieberman win them. Unfortunately you are not even there.

Abu Sa'ar said...

Mo -

I can't believe you're tearing into Pisa like this (and for no fault of her own, too) after requesting me to cease abusing Helen (to which I acquiesced). Kind of reminds me of the European attitude to the Arab/Israeli conflict :)


"people often scream 'mavet la-aravim' in Yisrael Beitenu rallies, you know that"

BS - and you know that. Just like the rest of your anti-Lieberman libel. I know that presenting Israelis as evil is just such an irresistible temptation, man, but please try to contain yourself. Currently you look poised to spill your wrath on someone for "Jenin Massacre", "Gaza Holocaust" and possibly even "Zionist Death Boars".


And as for the Arab-Israeli conflict... walla, Mo, the Arabs tried to genocide us. I can make this generalization because of the overwhelming majority of Arabs who are for the idea and the overwhelming majority of Arab states who participated in these attempts.

The only two things standing between another Holocaust and Israel are Arab incompetence and strength of Israeli arms. I can understand why you'd want to sap that strength - but at least be honest about it.

Anonymous said...

Nobody, I can't see why he shouldn't read Goldmans blog. Of course one can disagree with her, but since she's a succesful journalist, with extensive knowledge of the region and with contacts with the Israeli defence ministry, her blog seems extremely worthwhile. Also, her lack of prejudice toward the arabs as a people allows her to see the conflict in a more objective way than you do.
Also,to refer to Nizo as an alibi is strange: I know you admire him, but just because he says something doesn't make is necessarily so.
Abu Saar,
Mohamed~s critique of Pisa was maybe too harsh, but at least he made some good points.
But I don't mind your comments, I've attacked you in the past. It's just that your rantings are always similar: Evil arabs! Stupid arabs! Evil Islam! Genocide! Poor us! Good Israel! Evil westernes! Stupid Helen! Evil Helen! etc... You're just wasting your time, so it's good you've stopped. :D
Helen

Anonymous said...

Lisa Goldman, a recent immigrant to Israel has "extensive knowledge of the region" (???) b/c she speaks to some people from the IDF, yet the views/ analysis of actual IDF soldiers like Abu Saar and Nobody are dismissed? Am I missing something?

Question for Israelis -
Is Lisa Goldman popular/successful in Israel?

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

Goldman is Amira Hass wannabe.. Only difference is that Hass does real investigative reporting. Goldman "investigates" what cafes have the best coffee.

Nobody said...

Anonymous said...

Nobody, I can't see why he shouldn't read Goldmans blog. Of course one can disagree with her, but since she's a succesful journalist, with extensive knowledge of the region and with contacts with the Israeli defence ministry, her blog seems extremely worthwhile. Also, her lack of prejudice toward the arabs as a people allows her to see the conflict in a more objective way than you do.
Also,to refer to Nizo as an alibi is strange: I know you admire him, but just because he says something doesn't make is necessarily so.


Helen

If you have nothing of substance to say, then you should better avoid boring people with your endless moralizing. Maybe Nizo is not the top Middle East expert, but still I believe he understands in these matters a bit more than you do. Again, you are very welcomed to produce a meaningful comment to explain what exactly is flawed in Nizo's line of reasoning. Meaningful comment of course means nothing in the style of I believe in this or that because I want to believe in this or that. It means to produce a meaningful comment instead of pointless sloganeering for hours.

Nobody said...

Question for Israelis -
Is Lisa Goldman popular/successful in Israel?

-Ellie


Dunno if she is popular but she is not very knowledgeable. In terms of analysis there is nothing. Maybe her blog is cute as a journalistic diary and she travels a lot, but she is not even Michael Totten, however much she would like to be one.

Anonymous said...

Yes Ellie, you are missing something. As an Israeli, she's not objective,(I doubt nobody is) but I dare say she's more objective than Nobody and Abu Saar. An IDF soldier is not supposed to be objective, also, these two gentlemen have strong opinion about arabs.
It comes with the territory of being a journalist: you're collecting facts, and knowledge. Goldman has "the situation" as her job. Nobody works in Hi Tech, which means he's probably better than her at computers, but I'd say she knows more about the political situation.
Helen

Nobody said...

Well. The point I was making was not about Lisa, but about Lieberman and what his program actually is. And the point was that his rhetoric notwithstanding, in terms of practical recommendations he is no racist and not even very rightist. Never mind, that a personal background is absolutely irrelevant to the issue at hand. Lisa is a recent repatriant or not, what it has to do with all this? Ellie, I was surprised that you would make such an argument at all.

Anonymous said...

Nobody, I can't tell you anything else that Mohamed's already said. He's wasting his time with you. Me, I've discussed the settlements, for instance, I was also wasting my time with you.
But I'll tell you one thing: your rude, prejudiced rantings against Mohamed and arabs in general proves that you pretty good at endless moralizing yourself... and it seriously affects your analysis, which I noticed after reading your blog. Finally: your embarrassing dismissal of Goldman says more about you than her.
But enough said, we don't get any further.
Helen

Nobody said...

Helen

I really encourage you to get hold of your emotional side and try to comment in a more ... let say... reasonable way. You think I am wrong and my reasoning does not hold water, then show why. It's very difficult to talk with a person who can talk for hours without saying anything in substance.

Another thing is that I told you already about your moral clarities and your sense of moral superiority over other people. I am absolutely indifferent to this stuff. You can hold this title of yours, I don't dispute it. I told you from the beginning I am not a nice person and I don't care about it. But even if you want to imitate the style of my abusive commenting as you do in your last comments, you should pay attention - I am always making a point. You can always argue about it. I encourage you to do the same

Nobody said...

When an extremist party entered the government in Austria - remember Georg Haider? - the EU imposed sanctions on them.

By the way, I don't know details about this Haider, but as as I can see the European politicians should better start getting used to these people. From my personal experience in Europe and other info, this kind of parties are the future or at least a part of the future of Europe. As inter community tensions, you may call it a clash of civilizations, in Europe are growing, such parties can only see their support increase. I am absolutely not surprised that in some countries they now take up to 1/4 to 1/3 of all votes. In my view, this is only beginning

Pisa said...

Helen

"As an Israeli, she's not objective,(I doubt nobody is) but I dare say she's more objective than Nobody and Abu Saar. An IDF soldier is not supposed to be objective, also, these two gentlemen have strong opinion about arabs."

You can't accuse people of being biased just because they're Israelis. It's racist. Something you're pretending not to be. Those two gentlemen may have strong opinion about arabs (don't see why "strong opinion" should be something bad), but you certainly have your very strong opinion about Israel and Israelis.

FYI: IDF soldiers are not some robots assembled on Mars. They are our kids, our fathers, brothers, sisters. The way you talk about them is, to say the least, offensive.

Mo-ha-med said...

Alright, so maybe I did tear into Pisa a little too harshly, I admit.

And while, indeed, I do need Hebrew lessons - I didn't finish Ulpan, you see - I did read your comment, Pisa, which was ludicrous. "I don't stereotype.. But those Muslims, they don't live in the 21st century!" (except for your couple of exceptions). Right, no stereotyping!!

As for the UN - well, the world does. Extremists don't. You're obviously in the latter category.

Nobody - who said anything about South Lebanon? As for Lieberman - please don't brush him aside with his "14 mandates".
The man is your new chief of diplomacy. As such, he is the image Israel has formally chosen to present of itself to the world - and so, by job description.
Congratulations, great choice!!

As for Lisa Goldman's blog - I'll tell you one thing: years back, before I came to Israel and as I was attempting to learn about the Israeli society, her blog was a voice of sanity among the proto-terrorists and other Kach and 'Kill the Arabs' and 'Jordan is Palestine' madmen who pollute the Israeli anglophone blogosphere, and who make it seem like everyone in Israel is set on annihilating the Arabs and stealing their land.

Lisa presented Israel as beautiful and imperfect, the way it is, and gave me, and gazillions of other people the chance to know that not only there are other voices debating in Israel - but also that kids bike on the highway on Yom Kippour.
And I, who came to Israel with all my prejudices, came to see the beauty and the imperfections, too. I was particularly lucky though - I actually got to know her personally.

Honestly, you owe her thanks for the image she presents of your country. And you're lucky to have someone like her.

As for her reporting: it is a) outstanding and b) most of her professional work isn't on her blog (obviously, since it belongs to the media outlets she works of) and c) if you can't tell the difference between human interest stories and newspaper headlines, you shouldn't be allowed near one.

And the comment on her being a new immigrant is truly, truly pathetic. Not only is that inaccurate - ask her - but I'll have you notice that a large segment of the proto-terrorists who live in the West Bank - which you seem to identify with - along with a large segment of the anglos are not integrated in the society, live in their little anglo communities, and know less Hebrew than I do.


Abu Sa'ar:
the Zionists boars... yes! I remember that story! Hilarious!

I'll tell you something about the 'overwhelming majority of Arabs' since you insist on generalising: they don't give a crap about you! You are but a 9 o'clock news item, just before the weather report. (well, more important than the weather, granted). They don't wake up every morning scheming plots of Jewish annihilation, trust me - they have more important things on their minds.
They do care about the oppression of the Palestinians and yes, in that story, you're the bad guys. If you want the rest of the Arab world off your back, it goes through the Palestinian crisis. Any other argument of the 'existential threat' is just cheap populism.
And please don't start again with the 'they want to genocide us!'. You know too well it's far, far more complex. I actually suggest you read Rashid Khalidi's the Iron Cage (hey, if i can read Dershowitz, you can read Khalidi!). The first few chapters concern the efforts of cohabitation extended by the Palestinians, systematically rejected by the Jewish yishuv and by Britain.
Genocide there was indeed, sir, but it was a Palestinian genocide.

Nobody: (did i address you twice? that's how much i love ya')

his rhetoric notwithstanding, in terms of practical recommendations he is no racist and not even very rightist.

Well, tell me something, since you were quoting Hamas' charter: would you be willing to extend the same kind of leniency towards them? After all, you seem to be able to tell the difference between 'rhetoric' and 'practicality'...

Alright. Enough writing. Lunchtime!

Pisa said...

Mo
Please stop putting words in my mouth (and your foot in your mouth). Enough writing indeed!

Anonymous said...

Pisa, I can't see how Israelis or Palestinians can avoid being biased. I doubt anyone is absolutely objective, regardless whether they're Israeli, Swedish or Egyptian. Goldman isn't, Mohamed isn't, I'm not. Although some people are more objective than others. I don't recall being particurally offensive about the IDF though. I said IDF soldiers (like most soldiers) are not supposed to be objective, and I can't see how they could be. I also wrote that the IDF guys have certain T Shirts at home. That, I admit, was wrong. I should have said SOME IDF soldiers have these T shirt, others don't. Sorry.
I hope I'm not a racist, but who knows?
You're right Mohammed, time for lunch.
Helen

Nobody said...

Mo-ha-med said...

Nobody - who said anything about South Lebanon?


This follows from your comment. That's the only thing Hamas can do is to turn Gaza into South Lebanon. Never mind that these are their own words.

As for Lieberman - please don't brush him aside with his "14 mandates"

Did I brush him aside? I think I am trying to bring him into discussion all the time.However, 14 mandates is 14 mandates, no more nor less. And anyway this is as relevant as what kind of blogging and reporting Lisa is doing. I don't care about this at all. My point was not if Lisa is an Israeli version of Michael Totten or not, but that instead of constantly evoking the name of the Lieberman you should actually look at what he is suggesting in practical terms instead of relying on second hand information. And in this respect I am ready to quote him just as I am ready to quote Hamas charter while you are prepared to discuss none of them.

Mo-ha-med said...

Why said I'm biased? I'm super objective. Pfff.
:)

Nobody, focus and stop evading. You said something about looking at Lieberman's policies rather than his rhetoric.
Alright, I'll walk with you. My comment was about the levity with which you address the Lieberman issue - that a fascist party is the second largest in the government doesn't seem to alarm you; so be it.
But you speak of his rhetoric, claiming that it really isn't that important, what matters is the policies.
My question was: why are you not willing to cut Hamas the same slack as you do Lieberman, and disregard their rhetoric as secondary as well?

I think rhetoric is very important; not to be taken lightly, nor ad-verbatim either.

(and - and that's an honest question - how do they plan on turning Gaza into South Lebanon?)

Pisa - I would, but the shoelaces are tangled to my teeth. :)
Yalla. Go. You're not interesting anymore.

Nobody said...

Nobody, focus and stop evading. You said something about looking at Lieberman's policies rather than his rhetoric.
Alright, I'll walk with you. My comment was about the levity with which you address the Lieberman issue - that a fascist party is the second largest in the government doesn't seem to alarm you; so be it.
But you speak of his rhetoric, claiming that it really isn't that important, what matters is the policies.
My question was: why are you not willing to cut Hamas the same slack as you do Lieberman, and disregard their rhetoric as secondary as well?

I think rhetoric is very important; not to be taken lightly, nor ad-verbatim either.


Mo-ha-med

We already have one Stockholm syndrome participating in this blog, I am not sure I can handle the presence of another one without reverting to massive verbal abuse. Talk substance and stop sloganeering. You are talking about Lieberman and his 14 seats as if there is something here that Israelis should be gravely ashamed of. So I am asking you to come forward and prove to me that this is indeed a fascist party. Now I do think that Lieberman is extreme but he is extreme only in the context of mainstream Israeli parties. He is absolutely not extreme by any other standard.

I don't know how many conflicts you followed but I am familiar with quite a few and I assure you that if nationalists on all sides were represented by people like Lieberman, then 90% of all conflicts would have never happened at all. Instead there would have been only velvet divorces the style of Czechoslovakia. Many conflicts happen because of a minority wanting to break out of a country despite the will of majority. Here comes a person who says don't even ask them if they want to join the other side, fence them off. With fascists like these Yugoslavia would have never happened.

The only thing comparable to Lieberman in the Arab world I know is Sudan where Bashir agreed to let them in the South have a referendum on independence in 2011 and this happened after a war in which ntwo millions died. And I am not sure that Bashir is serious about it, that he is not just buying time and weapons.

The problem with Lieberman is not that he is extreme by Israeli standards, the problem is that we can't get on the other side anything as moderate as him, people who would come and say - Ok to territorial swaps, goodbye to the right of return, lets fix the fence and go each to his own business.

Abu Sa'ar said...

Mo -

Yisrael Beiteinu is not fascist. Not even their rhetoric is fascist. Nor racist. Are you seriously comparing Yisrael Beiteinu's desire to create a Palestinian state with the Hamas desire to kill all Jews, destroy Israel and proceed to wage war against the rest of the world?

Come on.

Your abuse of Pisa has removed Helen's protection, by the way. Consequences, mate, and responsibility. Even so, I'll refrain from abusing her on your blog as a gesture of good will :)

As for Khalidi - I despise Orientalists. I despise history revisionists even more. And I read more than enough of the pollution Khalidi spreads. May a thousand squirrels find his nuts - that anti-intellectual propagandist is a blight upon the academia, as far as something so perverted can still be blighted. Although I can say this about most followers of corrupt scum like Edward Said. One can read only that many lies and bullshit in the service of genocidal organizations of barbarians.

When I want history, I read history (or in this case ask people who lived it).


Yes yes, most Arabs do not spend their time actively hating me. Passively hating is enough. But the crux of the matter is this:

The only two things standing between another Holocaust and Israel are Arab incompetence and strength of Israeli arms. You know it. I know it. Everyone with any knowledge of the Middle East knows it. Just ask Hassan.

Everything else is fluff.

Anonymous said...

You better learn to get a long with these "barbarians" as you call them, Racoon. (Piza, you do agree he has strong feelings about the arabs, don't you)
Since your settler friends seem unable to keep off from the West Bank, one happy binational state seems more and more inevitable. Not that you would realize this, or see this as a problem.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073771.html
Helen

Aviv said...

Question for Israelis -
Is Lisa Goldman popular/successful in Israel?


She has appeared on national TV (channel 10) and featured in Time Out Tel-Aviv. Otherwise, she appears mostly in English-language media which appeals to a niche audience.

Mo-ha-med said...

I don't like how this conversation is degenerating. We should cut it.. change of tone!

Nobody
Yugoslavia, people wanted to split, dictator didn't want. In Israel, well, Israeli Arabs don't want to separate, dictator(-to-be) wants to kick them out. I don't think they're comparable - one thing is sure: I don't want to see Israel go down in violence and, Rachamana litzlan, civil war!

As for Sudan - it's really not comparable. I worked for the Arab League, on the issue of Sudan, among others. The peace agreement was shoved down their throat by IGADD and the United States (the League had a second initiative, you may know) - not only was a referendum planned by Sudan was given 6 years to 'invest in the South to encourage people to stay in the country' -- basically, they're having Khartoum pay for the infrastructure on behalf of the next government.

And if Lieberman is not extreme by Israeli standards - then there's the real disaster.
Luckily, I think that many people in Israel agree, including mainstream television. (If you haven't seen this skit, you must! Heck, i think i'll watch again after posting this.)
This - actually gives me hope in Israel.

Abu Sa'ar
Goodwill gestures? Are we becoming friends now? :-D
And I'm off our dear Pisa. And, heck, I might even apologise, just for you. How about that? :)
I can understand that Israel want to maintain military supremacy - which is already does; but a peace agreement would be a nice extra guarantee, no?

PS: Stockholm syndrome is the phenomenon of hostages developing sympathy towards their hostage-takers. I'm sure you're looking for a good insult but this isn't it!

Nizo said...

Abu Sa'ar said...

"Although I can say this about most followers of corrupt scum like Edward Said."


To call Edward Said corrupt scum is ignorant on your behalf, and you just lost precious credibility points with me even if I still consider you of above average intelligence.

As someone who has read Said's books and who once had the privilege to personally meet him for dinner here in Montréal, I can assure you that the man is absolutely brilliant, his only faults are his extreme arrogance and lack of a sense of humour.

Now I certainly don't agree with every single one of his ideas, nor with the way some people blame the West for everything and use his books as crutches, but it goes without saying that his contributions to post-colonial studies helped shed light on a not so distant time in history with reverberations up to this very day.

Nizo said...

Does anyone know what Yisrael Beitenu's position is on settlements other than the major blocks that are to be absorbed?

As in those in the Jordan Valley?

Also, if Um el Fa7im is to be absorbed into the West Bank, what about the Galilee?

Has Lieberman ever elaborated on his territorial exchange ideas in detail?

Shay said...

Wallah I tell them, self-demilitarize, resist the occupation in non-violent means, make this a civil rights struggle, hold hunger strikes, marches etc.. appeal to the Israeli left, (which was decimated when Hamas bombed the buses and when the Palestinians cheered rather than condemned).

This is exactly the point. I was so angry when Hamas got elected.
If the Palestinian leadership had taken the path of nonviolent resistance, you'd have a country by now. We don't mind killing armed militants, but it crushes our soul to see Palestinian children starve. Don't think it doesn't.

But it's not just Hamas. Arafat killed the Israeli left just as much. We went so far - paid such a heavy price - Rabin's life and Barak's premiership - We had brave leadership and a public that traversed a lnog distance in its consensus - only to find out the other side was in no rush to end this conflict.

From Ari Shavit's interview with former Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami :
[...]after Clinton's parameters and at Taba it was already 100 percent of the territory. And you had to be blind and deaf not to know that Barak was going to lose the election. You had to be blind and deaf not to understand that it was all going down the tubes. But despite everything, they didn't budge. At Taba, too, they didn't budge. A dream proposal is on the table, but the Palestinians are in no hurry.

"I remember looking at them and thinking to myself that I don't see any sense of tragedy on their faces. I don't see the pain of a missed opportunity in their eyes. That was a terrible thing for me, something that etched itself within me.


http://www.7th-day.co.il/mehumot/hayom.htm

|3run0 said...

Good to know we are all half cylon. I feel toasterier already

|3run0 said...

Oooops... Wrong blog

Nizo said...

Pisa said...
"Hatred of jews in the muslim world didn't start with Hamas, you know."

The Muslim world treated their Jewish subjects better than anyone else did, relatively speaking of course.

My Christian co-religionists have more Jewish blood on their hands than the Muslims do, horrors that make the pogroms of Casablanca and Hebron seem like festive tequila beach parties in comparison.

Anyway, I'm really not interested in digging up the remains of the dead, what interests me so much more is the firm belief of mine that thousands of years of enmity made the Jews what they are today. Yes, it's fuel for their persistent paranoia, but it also gave them cohesion, reinforced their identity and enabled the amalgam known as Israel of otherwise disparate and dispersed social units.

Without the pogroms, Holocaust and other such events many of the Jews would have melted into their host societies, except perhaps for an Amish-like core.

Nizo said...

Shay said

"I was so angry when Hamas got elected."

You know Shay, if you got angry, imagine how I felt being represented by these baboons. Peace agreement aside, a personal dream of mine is to have a physical link with Palestine, regardless of where it ends up being. Even if I live a 1000 years in the west I still don't feel like a ben adam shalem here, I belong in the sun, the tempers, the hairy bums of the Levantine men and most importantly I would love to be a stone's throw from Tel Aviv and its cultural life so I can have coffee with Lisa Goldman at lunch and a shot of vodka with Nobody at night. But the way things are going, this will never happen.

My problem isn't with Hamas but what it represents. Hamas is only a manifestation of a Palestinian sense of stubbornness, of victimization, of rejectionism. If Hamas signs a peace treaty with Israel tomorrow, I would bet you both my testicles that a new party will emerge to fill the void. Because those sentiments are alive and haven't been resolved.

And there's the fact that Arafat wanted to die a revolutionary, not the man who would have effectively signed away the dream of repatriating Yaffa, Haifa, Akka etc..

(and the Palestinians applauded his lack of compromise by the way. The wound of losing the lands of 48 is still too fresh, we're not ready to become like the Greeks whose longing for Constantinople is merely romantic.)

karen said...

Nizo, I just love reading what you have to say. You have a real calming affect (even though you say you are too intense). When I get really angry at what someone else wrote, it all goes away after reading your words. If only every Arab (and Jew) were like you (well, we would have zero population growth, but at least we would all be more relaxed)! Even when you are critical of Jews or Israelis, it is easier to take when it comes from you or someone like you. You aren't hateful and it's nice, to put it quite simply.

Anonymous said...

Nobody-

"Dunno if she is popular but she is not very knowledgeable."

I know that, but does she have a show, a news column? I think she writes for the Guardian in London, that's why I was asking about her popularity in Israel.

"Never mind, that a personal background is absolutely irrelevant to the issue at hand. Lisa is a recent repatriant or not, what it has to do with all this? Ellie, I was surprised that you would make such an argument at all."

Maybe I should be more clear. Daniel Pipes doesn't live in the ME either, but like him or not, he does understand a few things.

On the other hand, it seems to me that Lisa doesn't have a degree or background in ME studies from Harvard or something. I don't know much about her but I think she is from North America and moved to Israel during the intifadah and became the "go to girl" for the ultra left wing or anti-Israel crowd. So I don't understand why people would go to her for analysis. Actually, I do understand and that's b/c she is their version of the "good Israeli."

I remember Abu Saar/raccoon's stories about when the shit hit the fan when he was serving in the IDF along with those Palestinian soldiers. To me these stories were much more interesting and also provided an important insight. I would rather read real stories like this any day than bullshit about Israeli Arab actors...

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

By the way Nobody, do you really think Totten's analysis is worth mentioning? His stories are interesting but they are just that - stories. He should skip the analysis part in my opinion.

-Ellie

Nobody said...

Also, if Um el Fa7im is to be absorbed into the West Bank, what about the Galilee?

Has Lieberman ever elaborated on his territorial exchange ideas in detail?


He mentioned Galilee as a possibility and parts of Negev on one occasion too. But these are technicalities. In those interviews with him I saw or read (not very many, three or four) he defined it as this.

First, the question of whether these should be 1967 borders is immaterial since what he is looking is a national consensus. So it could be all the way back to 1967 borders as long as he is assured by the left that these are the borders that they are ready to defend without reservations. Basically it's about letting the Left to finish self destructing itself, a process which is already half way through after Lebanon and Gaza. He is ready to give the leftists what they want to finish them off.

Second, if Kadima or whoever are going to create a Palestinian state and evacuate settlements, then they should solve the problem once and for all. There should be no half solutions, the issue of Palestinian minority in Israel should be resolved. There should be no half states here, one Palestinian and another half Palestinian half Jewish. 20% of Arabs is too much for Lieberman, it's a binational state and he does not want to have one. So if Kadima is going to move the border, they should move it all the way into leaving all these triangles and Fahems on the Palestinian side.

Nobody said...

Nobody
Yugoslavia, people wanted to split, dictator didn't want. In Israel, well, Israeli Arabs don't want to separate, dictator(-to-be) wants to kick them out. I don't think they're comparable - one thing is sure: I don't want to see Israel go down in violence and, Rachamana litzlan, civil war!

As for Sudan - it's really not comparable. I worked for the Arab League, on the issue of Sudan, among others. The peace agreement was shoved down their throat by IGADD and the United States (the League had a second initiative, you may know) - not only was a referendum planned by Sudan was given 6 years to 'invest in the South to encourage people to stay in the country' -- basically, they're having Khartoum pay for the infrastructure on behalf of the next government.


Mo-ha-med

For starters, I've already said that Bashir is probably not serious about his referendum. This is just a time buying trick. I doubt that there exists one single Arab country in the world ready to grant its minorities self determination. There exists none. For sure not Sudan that's right now in the process of genociding its another minority. So thank you for your info, but I don't think you should invest any effort to prove my point. I can do it myself.

Second, regarding Israeli Arabs. You have no idea what your comment did to me as I just can't stop wiping tears off my eyes. This is so touching, this devotion that Israeli Arabs have towards our racist apartheid-dictatorship. Incidentally I am wondering if there may be some other reasons to explain the inexplicable besides brotherly feelings Israeli Arabs have towards their Jewish neighbors. Actually I vaguely recall Nizo telling me something about one relative of his who, after having visited that part of their family that resides in Israel, called them "niggers on welfare". I would like to expand on this a bit more. However I have to go to work and anyway the emotions your comment has evoked in me are too strong and overwhelming. I need some time to calm down.

Nobody said...

Anonymous said...

By the way Nobody, do you really think Totten's analysis is worth mentioning? His stories are interesting but they are just that - stories. He should skip the analysis part in my opinion.

-Ellie


No. I don't think his analysis is good. However, I appreciate the stories and his ability to get his ass into the most troubled corners of the region and other parts of the world.

Aviv said...

I don't know much about her but I think she is from North America and moved to Israel during the intifadah and became the "go to girl" for the ultra left wing or anti-Israel crowd

WTF? Lisa is not ultra left-wing or anti-Israel. I think she represents the Israeli center-left on many issues. See this story for example. (Granted, she was in a minority by being against the Gaza war).

Nizo said...

karen said...
"Nizo, I just love reading what you have to say. You have a real calming affect"

By the way Karen, I happen to have a post-graduate certificate in business negotiation and conflict resolution.. call me next time you have a fight with your boss or when you want to buy a new car.

Nizo said...

Aviv said..
"Lisa is not ultra left-wing or anti-Israel. I think she represents the Israeli center-left on many issues."

I agree with Aviv here, and with Mohammed earlier about Lisa presenting a picture of an Israel that is beautiful and imperfect. For Israelis who criticise her, you could at least appreciate that she ends up propagating better hasbara than other bloggers whose views alienate instead of attract.

Pisa said...

Nizo

"Hamas is only a manifestation of a Palestinian sense of stubbornness, of victimization, of rejectionism"

Please don't tell me you really believe this. While some of Hamas' members might fit your description, the leadership couldn't care less about their people. Goats, remember?
http://media.photobucket.com/image/goat%2Bdancing/domesticenemy/092304_goat.gif

Mo

Just back from a short visit to your blog. There's only one thing I agree with – Israelis are rude. Thumbs up for The Bourne Identity and Nickelback.

Pisa said...

What happened to my link? Can't post links here?

Nizo said...

Pisa said..
"Hamas is only a manifestation of a Palestinian sense of stubbornness, of victimization, of rejectionism"

Please don't tell me you really believe this. While some of Hamas' members might fit your description, the leadership couldn't care less about their people.


The fact that hamas is a manifestation of a popular sentiment and that the leadership does not care for its people are not mutually exclusive ideas or paradoxical realities. I don't see your logic and I have to run to work and a bowling tournament thereafter so have fun on the blog until I show up 16 hours later or so.

If that abusive Kuwaiti animal shows up, since I won't be able to delete his comments I'm counting on people here to fix him good.

Nizo said...

Pisa,
before I go, I hope you're not one of those who believe that the Palestinians are "hostages" of their leaders. While a certain segment certainly is, the majority vote these assholes in power and so far they haven't launched an internal intifada to protest the direction in which the leadership has taken us. So the Palestinians themselves have to be held accountable, which is why I also wrote recently:

"This is fast becoming my credo, especially as I examine our leaderships' inability to build any kind of functioning pre-state, despite billions of dollars in aid money that has flowed into our coffers since Oslo. I will also add that our Palestinian voters who have elected these animals should also get an invitation to the maslakh. Then I would round up the millions of our arm-chair cheerleaders around the world who continue to encourage "resistance" instead of holding us at least partially accountable for the 60-year catastrophe that we have helped perpetuate.


maslakh is slaughterhouse or משחטה
in ifreet.

Pisa said...

Nizo
No hostages, no. Just confused. All they have from their leadership are calls for war and promises for new improved and longer wars!

Have a nice day.

Abu Sa'ar said...

Nizo -

Said was a major contributor to the vile politicization of science (insofar as humanities in modern academia can still be considered science, that is). I also tend to think it was deliberate on his part. Kind of like Noam Chomsky, but not quite.

Politicizing science reduces the general level of knowledge and creates active ignorance (the worst kind). Ergo, I conclude that Said is a corrupter. Scum was added for emphasis.

I didn't meet him or read his books, by the by, only articles, interviews, excerpts and critiques. So my perception rests on significantly less solid foundations than yours.


Mo -

I don't really mind you tearing into Pisa (sorry, Pisa :) ) - she's a big girl and can take care of herself. It's amusing in the context, though.

And as for friends - of course not! I am trying to lull you into a false sense of security so that I could find you and eat your liver. Which reminds me, you're refraining from alcohol like a good Muslim, yes? ;)

Civil war in Israel is nigh inevitable, by the way.

Nobody said...

Hey Nizo

I found this mentioning of Galilee and Negev in one of the articles by Lieberman posted on Israel Beytenu site.

On the Palestinian front, two points:

Firstly, I reiterate my position which I have stated publicly in the media, and privately to top US administration officials several times over the last six months: You can’t impose a political solution in the region before you ensure two basic prerequisites: Security for Israelis and prosperity for Palestinians.
Citizens on both sides of the conflict are tired of new peace plans and initiatives – they have been disappointed too many times over the last 14 years. Every individual – Israeli or Palestinian - has to see his own personal benefit in any agreement before endorsing it.

Secondly, any solution must take into account the status of Israeli Arabs (or as they prefer to be called, “Palestinians living in Israel”). The risk of ignoring this sector of the population is that we might find ourselves in the future with a Palestinian nation-state on the one hand, and Israel a bi-national state with over 20% minorities who have a strong, national bond to the neighboring state on the other.
In that occurrence, I predict we will either see an irridenta-type move to unite the predominately Arab Galilee and Negev desert regions with the future Palestinian state, or alternatively, a demand for their autonomy. Do not be mistaken - I am in favor of a two-state solution; not one and a half states for the Palestinian people and half a state for the Jewish people.

Source

Nobody said...

And this is from his interview to JPost...
Returning to your party platform, though Israel forcibly moved Jews out of their homes in Gush Katif and northern Samaria, is it realistic to expect anyone in this country or abroad to agree to the uprooting of even a single Arab?

We are not proposing to move populations. We are talking about moving the border. This way, people will stay put in their homes and on their land.

Isn't this a bit unrealistic, considering the border would have to wind around in circles, creating enclaves?

You can't separate the populations entirely, but you can with a large portion. All the Arab settlements on the line between us and the PA - Umm el-Fahm, for example - won't be moved. We'll move the border. We won't have to pay for their unemployment, or health, or education. We won't have to subsidize them any longer.

In that event, what will happen if they behave as the Gazans have been - and, instead of building up their society, they store weapons and fire missiles?

As in the case of any country acting aggressively, which could come from Lebanon or Syria, we would respond accordingly.

Source

Nobody said...

Mo

The Jewish Hadith of the Gharkad tree is on display here and waiting for your commentary.

Mo-ha-med said...

Lots to catch up with!
For some reason I was under the impression that the thread was quieting down...

What I find very funny when people talk about 'one-and-half state' -- you'd think that we are indeed splitting land based on some equitable - i don't know, UNGA Res. 181 kind of thing?

The 'Palestinian state' is mini bits and pieces of a territory which represents, what, 80% of 20% of Mandate Palestine or something? (yes, probably not the right numbers, i can't be bothered to check now).
With settlements strategically placed in the middle? With no control over their own water sources?
You call this a real country?

And if Israel wants to join the decent countries club - then something like 'stripping people en masse of their citizenship based on ethnic criteria' shouldn't even be on the table.
Why is that so hard to understand?

If they ask for 'autonomy' (as Lieberman so wisely suggests!) then that's a different issue. It's not the case, is it? No, right now there's just the dream of a megalomaniac and his (many, many) cheerleaders on a quest for ethnic/religious purity.

Abu Sa'ar -
Is eating a Muslim's liver even kosher?

Pisa -
if you really find nothing you like on my blog then....
actually I was going to say that's sad but honestly I don't care much -- but I am surprised! Not even this? (this one is my Israeli charm offensive).
Unless you're one of those who look down on Tel Aviv?

Nobody -
Glad i got your lacrimal glands working!
As for Sudan: what are you talking about? The south is a done deal. Khalas. It's gone. And the Sudan is being blackmailed for whatever they can get out of it before the big independence party.

Nobody said...

The 'Palestinian state' is mini bits and pieces of a territory which represents, what, 80% of 20% of Mandate Palestine or something? (yes, probably not the right numbers, i can't be bothered to check now).

Well. If they would have considered the idea of the two state in 1948 they would have got much more. If the Palestinians would have not torpedoed Oslo, this would have still been more. Finally they can take these areas that Lieberman is talking about and so get more territory. Many of these are economically advanced areas by the standards of any Arab country around.

If they ask for 'autonomy' (as Lieberman so wisely suggests!) then that's a different issue. It's not the case, is it?

It is the case that Israeli Arabs stated that they are part of the Palestinian nation and the Arab world and that they suffer terribly from oppression and discrimination. I agree that Stockholm syndrome is contagious and once being oppressed and discriminated you will be always coming back begging for more. However, Israeli Arab leadership made it all very clear and with much pomp, that they don't like the state, don't like its hymn, they like nothing. So what is the reason they should be there? And what if I don't want to live with these people in one state? What if most Israelis don't want to live with them in one state? This is not our right to put a fence between ourselves and them and start weaning them off their Stockholm syndrome?

You know man, there is only as much irrationality that any normal person can handle. Have a pity on me. What kind of argument is this: that you would-be dictators don't allow these people to join your racist apartheid dictatorship.... and please also give the Palestinians more land. For fucks sake, where is logic in all this??!!

No, right now there's just the dream of a megalomaniac and his (many, many) cheerleaders on a quest for ethnic/religious purity.

Israeli Beytenu is absolutely not religious/ethnic party. And a lot of Lieberman's rage is actually reserved for the ultra orthodox. Much of his program targets them even more than Arabs. This is a party that made legalization of civil marriages one of the key points of its program. How it became a religious/ethnic purity? I am really getting curious about what Lisa and our other Helens are posting about Israel Beytenu on their blogs. Looks like it's time to pay a visit there.

And I can also assure you as a person who has a deep familiarity with Helens and Lisas (because I used to be one many years ago) that had Lieberman designed his program to target only the ultra orthodox, our Helens would have had no problem with him whatsoever. They would have lionized him and turned Israel Beytenu into a flagship of the secular resistance against religious coercion. They would have minded him neither his loyalty oaths, nor his citizenship conditioned on military/alternative service. If only he would have targeted with his ideas only the ultra orthodox sector. He would have been our Helens' best friend. I swear to you about this.

Anonymous said...

Aviv and Nizo,

Please read what I wrote again. I didn't accuse Lisa of being anti-Israel or ultra left wing, although I would not exactly agree that her views are center left either. I said those 2 groups are her fan base and go to her for ME analysis.

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

Anyway, I don't care about her political preferences, the thing about her is that she will talk to any Arab in a polite way, even if their views are extreme. She probably would not say a bad word about Israeli Arab knesset members, however she paints Lieberman as worse than Hitler. She is judging Arabs by different standards and acting on it, and that in itself is racist, while she accuses others of being racist!

One cannot claim that Mahmoud Abbas is a moderate while calling Lieberman a fascist. It's simply bullshit.

-Ellie

By the way, I also don't agree that she does a service for Israel. As you can see from this thread alone, her fans are still anti-Zionist. She hasn't changed anything. In my eyes, there is nothing that can change their minds in any case. I don't buy this "good Israeli" nonsense.

Aviv said...

Ellie, I didn't understand you were referring to her fan base. I don't know anything about it. I'd suggest there are blogs better suited for them, like sabbah.biz.

If Lisa remains civil even when talking to loony people, that's admirable. I have yet to read her apply double standards, so you'd have to back up that claim with a link or two.

At risk of repeating myself, I'll say my impression from her recent pieces in PJM is that she is firmly planted in the center-left - Left-wing enough to justify a self-critical film like "A Waltz with Bashir", not left-wing enough to buy all the hysterical bullshit coming from the Palestinian side.

Re: Lisa and Hasbara. I do think Israeli-woman-on-the-street blogs are sorely lacking, which is exactly what "On the Face" started out like. They humanize Israelis and show readers the multiple facets of life in Israel. A lot of these just appeal to other Jews or Israelis; Lisa is pretty unique in trying to reach out meaningfully to people abroad.

That her politics are not 100% aligned with whatever the gov't is doing is a small price to pay for her authenticity.

Nobody said...

One cannot claim that Mahmoud Abbas is a moderate while calling Lieberman a fascist. It's simply bullshit.

-Ellie


Why not? It's very easy. We Israelis are racists because we don't want our Arabs to be part of our apartheid system and we are fascists because we don't provide Arabs with enough land to create their own state. You think there is some problem with logic here? I don't. So if we transfer Israeli Arab areas to the PA we are racists, if we don't we are fascists!!!

If Israeli Arabs decide that they don't want to live with us in one state we should respect their decision because this is democracy. But if the Jewish majority decides that it does not want to live with Israeli Arabs in the same state, this is fascism.

And basically it's clear as day that all Israel wants is to grab more Arab land. Lebanon and Gaza were diversion moves, and Israeli Arab areas Israel is not allowed to leave because this is fascism!!!

Why do you say that one cannot claim that Mahmoud Abbas is a moderate while calling Lieberman a fascist? You can claim what you want. Feel free to do it. Let alone in this part of the world. May cholera afflict that Theodor Herzel for having brought us here

Mo-ha-med said...

Nobody, you make so many erroneous arguments that I'm starting to wonder whether you actually don't understand, or whether you're playing the provocateur.

Look. Very simply.
Israel is committing two very distinct sets of errors.

First,
there are the Palestinians of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza; those people are under occupation. They should be freed, the settlements removed from their land, etc etc. They'll have their own country, which will have its own IDs or whatever the hell they want to do.

Second,
there's a 20% minority in Israel - call them Israeli Arabs, Palestinian Israelis, whatever - that is being treated like black people in 1970 America.
These people are subject to discrimination, face widespread abuse from their own government institutions - most notably the police, which finds no trouble whatsoever opening fire on, and massacring 13 Arab demonstrators who block intersections in protest, which it of course never would do to Jewish demonstrators.
For those guys, the solution is also clear: quit discriminating, give them their rights. Etc etc.

It's two distinct problems. And the solutions are very clear.
Don't lump them into one another.


If Israeli Arabs decide that they don't want to live with us in one state we should respect their decision because this is democracy. But if the Jewish majority decides that it does not want to live with Israeli Arabs in the same state, this is fascism."

"3aferem 3aleik", as they say in old Egyptian films -- kinda like "well done" or "that's my boy".

Nobody,it's called "SELF-DETERMINATION". Not 'autocratic determination for the others'. Why is that so fucking hard to understand? So, yes, the 'Jewish majority' that wants an ethnically pure state - well, what they seek is referred to as 'ethnic cleansing'. And it's a no-no.


As for "if they had considered the idea in 1948".. thank you for bringing it up.

Habibi, no one could agree to the terms of the British mandate and the subsequent res. 181.

And this allows me to put my new metaphorical story of the day:

If you take my wallet, and hand me back half the money in it - would you expect me to be happy and content?
Of course not. Well, same for 1948. No one in their right mind could agree to those terms.

You are right; now we can say that 'they should have agreed'. Ex-post evaluation is easy, though. On the spot, no one could've agreed.

Even old man Ben Gurion agrees:

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"


Actually, i have a question. Israel can either be a democratic state - a state for all its citizens - or a state that aims towards Jewish purity.

Which one is it, Nobody?

Anonymous said...

Ben Gurion quotes? How original...

-Elle

Abu Sa'ar said...

Mo -

You're outdoing yourself! Cynic to the bone, you.

I'll just comment on two pearls from your abundant selection:

When you say "most notably the police, which finds no trouble whatsoever opening fire on, and massacring 13 Arab demonstrators who block intersections in protest",

Surely you mean "most notably the police who dared to defend their lives when stormed by a huge "Yitbah al-yahood!" screaming mob. The police arrived in small numbers and without riot geat in response to the mob throwing large rocks and Molotov cocktails at cars going through the nearby highway, destroying and looting businesses, burning down hundreds of acres of surrounding forest (planted and preserved by the Jews) and engaging in other such pastimes." I understand that you wouldn't want to burden your audience with so many details. But perhaps something more approximate of truth wouldn't be out of place?


And then there's this brilliant idea - Jews can't decide whom they share stuff with! Why on Earth are Israelis obliged to be in the same state as Umm-al-Fahem Palestinians? You know what, fine. We don't want to move them out of our borders. We, the people of Israel, want to secede from Israel. Umm-al-Fahem can be Israel; we'll be Free Israel. How about it? Are we allowed to do that? Would they like that? Do we, the people of Free Israel, care?

Keep up the good work! :)


PS

Love the fake Ben Gurion quote.

Anonymous said...

Aviv,

Just read her comment section on any given day for several examples.

And again, in my opinion, she hasn't done a thing for hasbara. The anti-Israel people are still anti-Israel after reading her "human interest stories." Show me ONE person who became "pro-Israel" after reading her blog.

Then again, I am not one of those people who spend my days trying to win over people who can't be won over. These people WANT to believe Jews are racists and fascists so be it. I really don't care.

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

Raccoon,

Is it fake? I thought so, but couldn't find the link to the fake zionist quote page, although I know it exists somewhere in the blogosphere.

-Ellie

Nobody said...

@Mo

Have Ben Gurion really said it? Then I worship this man. One thing that always amazed me about Israelis like him is their non-nonsense ability to get to the core of the feelings and perception of the other side.

Now to your question. As far as I am concerned Israel should be a state for Israelis which means anybody who is speaking Hebrew or at least intends to raise his children as native Hebrew speakers. I am not preoccupied with who was these people's mother. In fact, this is probably what Lieberman has in mind with his civil marriages. No wonder so many 'Russians' are rooting for him. I would also extend my Israeli definition to any of our minorities that don't have their own national aspirations and accept Israel as a Jewish state. These include Christian Arabs, Druze and Circassians. (I don't care for what Christian Arabs really think. I don't see them as a threat). Regarding the Arab Muslim minority I see it squarely as part of the Palestinian nation that belongs to the world beyond our border and should join it. One of the reasons I consider Lieberman an extremist and loony is his idea of loyalty oath since it's beyond me why we should demand loyalty oath from people about whom we can be dead sure that at the first sign of Syrian tanks breaking through our frontlines we'll find them dancing on the streets.

I wish I could expand on my comment but I am heavily overloaded with whiskey and "long island". If you want to get a better idea of what I mean by Jewish and what by Israeli you can read this post of mine.

Mo-ha-med said...

Re: the quote - google.com, 'ben gurion quotes', first hit was this
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/david_ben-gurion/
Not that hard to find, really!

It was more interesting when Jewish leaders spoke their minds -- they were more interesting. Today's PR people are so careful about their clients say that Netanyahu says he cares about peace, Lieberman that he cares for minorities, etc...
Pff.

Abu Sa'ar:
If I made up quotes, I'd have more elaborate stuff than that. With big images, and comparisons of Arabs with snakes and insects and...
oh wait. Israelis already say that. Damn.

and please - cut the 'yitbah el yahood'. First, 'yitbah' isn't a word. "Yedbah", 'slaughter', you mean, I'm guessing? Then the sentence makes no grammatical sense - it has no subject (but an unwritten 'he' which still makes no sense). I know it's one of the lines you love but you can make up better. :)

And the police shooting demonstrators is unacceptable. How can you even defend that, sugarcoat it? Jeez!

Good luck in Free Israel. It's going to include what, the cities the Israelis created... oh great. Independent Tel Aviv then?
(yes, I'm poking fun at you here. Chill.)

Got some work to do for tomorrow. Will check your post later, Nobody.

Remember - Israel has two official languages. One is supposed to be able to conduct business, send their kids to school, in either.

Nizo said...

Ellie,
" The anti-Israel people are still anti-Israel after reading her "human interest stories." Show me ONE person who became "pro-Israel" after reading her blog."

The point isn't to become pro-Israel or pro-Zionist,

Take a close look at me Ellie, I'm probably the most liberal Palestinian you'll ever meet, and I'm neither pro-Israel or pro-Zionist. I have no interest in being either and Israel/Zionism have nothing to offer me.

Now if Lisa or others manage to add nuance and colour to people's views that's an achievement in itself.. but to expect her to turn people, especially Arabs to become pro-Israeli is illogical.

Abu Sa'ar said...

Mo -

You didn't make the quote up yourself, you googled up someone else's lie. Guess what you get when you google "Jewish control"?

These particular "demonstrators" nearly killed my brother. There is a difference between a demonstration and a murderous mob, you know. The police can be rightly accused of many things, chief among them being complete inefficiency in anything that's not terrorism. But you know as well as I do they're not in the business of massacring demonstrators. And that in that particular case were the "demonstrators" to reach the cops we'd have a few more dead Jews.

And I do not, alas, know Arabic. My Arabic teacher in school - one Raisa from Kfar Masr - didn't even try, may she be eaten by her goats.

Howie said...

Mo Ham...

Dude...can't accept your proof through metaphor...they just don't work.

So I look at the wallet say...wow...look what I found in here. I WHOLE bunch shit that belongs to ME going back 4,000 years. How the hell did THAT happen. And then the big bully on the block hears us arguing and says..."look, Jew...I am going to give you 10-20% of what is in here...now go get lost" and I say OK...but you say "no...it is all mine".

So you get your buddies and try to kill me...but you all lose...so I take more of what is in it. And you come back with your buddies later and try to kill me again...so I say "fuck you" and take more of it. And you come back again and try to kill me for it and I kick your ass.

So...you finally realize, you can't kill me...so instead you try to injury me at whenever you can come sneaking out of a dark alley and hit me in the head with a rock. And when every now and then...I shove my fist down your sorry mouth for it...you cry "oh the bully is picking on poor me and I am just a poor weak soul...oh, mommy...the bad bad bully".

Pretty weak and silly analogue Mo Ham...you are clearly a smart guy. Try again.

And all your paranoid stuff about the man keeping your people down in Israel. Really? Do you live there? Or do you just visit the propoganda sites for your info.? Though, Arabs can be treated shitty by Jews...Jews are also treated shitty by Arabs...geez you started it...no you started it...no YOU started it.

Fact is, many repressed Arabs own homes, businesses and do quite well and, likely unlike you, I have been there, been in those homes, bought goods in those businesses and even helped started a few of those businesses.

So why don't we all try to deal with truth and facts...but the truth can be so nuanced and unclear and even painful...well..then there are always slogans and weak analogies.

And Raccoon is right, those dudes are rioting and trying to burn and stone people...then tough shit, they deserve to get hurt.

Howie said...

My hopeful friends, some words of truth:

"Take a close look at me Ellie, I'm probably the most liberal Palestinian you'll ever meet, and I'm neither pro-Israel or pro-Zionist. I have no interest in being either and Israel/Zionism have nothing to offer me."

You see, Nizo has this terrible habit of trying to tell the truth. So those of us who have long prayed for a better day with our Arab cousins...sorry, Nizo is about as good as it is going to get and he is a gross MINORITY. So at best we can hope to go our own separate ways and a few of us can be friends to an extent...but the chasm is deep and there is very little good will on the other side of the security wall.

Nizo knows that the hatred and denial and machoism runs far too deep and it won't change much in our lifetimes. They don't much want it and don't much care and the best of them want us gone and most want us dead.

So...it is a real shit mess is it not, because we are going nowhere and will not lay down and die for them.

Howie said...

Damn...obviously I hate spell check and hate even more re-reading my posts...analogue...well pretty close to analogy don't you think?

Oh...Mo Ham...and I know you are part of the pork conspiracy. There is a place in Berkeley that advertises "Halal Food" and in small print in the corner of the sign says "Ham and Eggs Breakfast Special"

If you are ever on University Ave. near Sacremento St. I believe...you should drop in for breakfast there.

Howie said...

According to Mo Ham...these are more of your repressed Arab citizens of Israel. Faithful and loyal to the core:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1237727553638&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Howie said...

Mo Ham

Some more stuff to go on Israeli T-shirts:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1237727552888&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Anonymous said...

Nizo,

I don't expect you to become pro-Israel, nor do I long for the day or any other such nonsense. I like you the way you are. Nor do I care if other Arabs become pro-Israel or not, which is what I wrote in my last comment. I think the point is we are just longing for the day the Arabs are indifferent towards us. By the way, this is exactly the point Lieberman is making and that is that we should stop expecting Arabs, even the ones who are Israeli, to embrace Zionism or a Jewish state. It is delusional to think they will, or illogical as you said.

Second of all, I don't expect one thing from LG. You brought up Lisa's blog being good for hasbara and I just disagree. She hasn't changed people's minds at all. Her blog is just some human interest stories that, like someone else said , appeals to a niche crowd. Good for her. It's when she goes into her analysis, about Lieberman etc, where she is just all wrong. Like I said one can't claim that certain Arab leaders are moderate while claiming Lieberman is a fascist. That's being intellectually dishonest.

Also, the fawning over every guy, especially if he is Arab, is so OVER THE TOP. Someone so emotional who is massaging egos day and night should really stay away from analysis for their own good.

-Ellie

Pisa said...

Mo

I never said I didn't like anything about your blog. I said I don't agree with your views, which is not the same thing.

I love Tel Aviv. I also hate Tel Aviv. I wish you had the same amazing insights about the whole of the Middle East as you had about that small corner of it.

You don't read other people's comments - you read what you think they mean. This is very annoying for me. I choose my words carefully.

Have to go now. Bye.

Nobody said...

Howie said...

My hopeful friends, some words of truth:

"Take a close look at me Ellie, I'm probably the most liberal Palestinian you'll ever meet, and I'm neither pro-Israel or pro-Zionist. I have no interest in being either and Israel/Zionism have nothing to offer me."

You see, Nizo has this terrible habit of trying to tell the truth. So those of us who have long prayed for a better day with our Arab cousins...sorry, Nizo is about as good as it is going to get and he is a gross MINORITY. So at best we can hope to go our own separate ways and a few of us can be friends to an extent...but the chasm is deep and there is very little good will on the other side of the security wall.


Well. In practical terms it means nothing as most Israelis don't care about Arabs and want to see them all from behind the fence. This is absolutely normal. The days of wide eyed loonies of Oslo are over and frankly I think that all people who spend their days praying for a better day with our cousins should find something better to do in their lives. Ben Gurion pinned down the sentiment of the other side perfectly and this is what we have.

But the core of the problem lies not in mutual love or absence of it but in the inability of both sides to get realistic and technical about solution. Lieberman is absolutely correct about the Palestinian minority in Israel as a problem that should be resolved if this conflict is to stop. And the fact that this is not obvious to Israeli peacemakers follows from an ill based Israeli belief that there is that one last piece of paper they should sign and then history stops in the Middle East.

I was blogging for three years and followed dozens of Arab blogs until I lost my interest in the Middle East and Arabs. However, there is one thing that I am carrying with myself from this experience and which many Israelis should better keep in mind. The Middle East may be a fascinating region in its own peculiar barbaric way and I certainly can understand people who get mesmerized by it and its inhabitants. However there is one golden rule by which all nature enthusiasts who get hooked on lions and tigers faithfully abide: YOU DON'T STICK YOUR FUCKING STUPID HEAD INTO THEIR DEN BECAUSE YOU WILL BE EATEN!!! Those who think I am exaggerating will soon see it all playing itself out in Europe and elsewhere.

That's why I can only second Nizo on my side: I'm neither pro-Arab or pro-Middle East. I have no interest in being either and Arabs/Middle East have nothing to offer me."

Nobody said...

Mo

I examined your comment in details now and it's just no better than the previous one. Take this for example:


Nobody,it's called "SELF-DETERMINATION". Not 'autocratic determination for the others'. Why is that so fucking hard to understand? So, yes, the 'Jewish majority' that wants an ethnically pure state - well, what they seek is referred to as 'ethnic cleansing'. And it's a no-no.


And Arab minority that wants to join an ethnically pure state, this is democracy? How nice. Anyway, I don't care about ethnicity, but I do care about having hostile minorities and Muslim Arabs make for very problematic minorities everywhere I can see.

You have a strange kind of logic. If a minority decides to split, then it's ok. If the majority decides to leave, this is ethnic cleansing. Finally as Rakun offered, we can go on to establish another state, call it new Israel. Umm al Fahem, parts of Negev and Galilee can continue calling themselves Israel. The names are not important. What's important is how we can make you leave us fuck alone.

Mo-ha-med said...

Late for work (imagine that - late for a meeting I actually volunteered to attend. Pfff...), love the new replies, Howie: nickname not funny so you can drop it now,
will get back later but until then I leave you with this. Morning smiles.
Shabbat shalom, people.

Nobody said...

take care, man

Howie said...

Your Great Majesty Mohamed:

"Howie: nickname not funny so you can drop it now,"

OK OK OK...wow...sounds pretty frightening.

Aviv said...

there's a 20% minority in Israel - call them Israeli Arabs, Palestinian Israelis, whatever - that is being treated like black people in 1970 America.
These people are subject to discrimination, face widespread abuse from their own government institutions


I would answer that in depth but I have organic chemistry homework. They were given to me by my professor, who is female and Arab.

I wonder in how many other countries in the Middle East can Arab women get PhD's, vote, run for office, drive cars and such.

Aviv said...

Ellie, I think a better target audience for hasbara is not the anti-Israel crowd but the uninformed and undecided majority of surfers. They don't mind so much about the minutiae of this politician or that policy, but just care about the big picture: "Israelis are normal people and we would rather not get into any more wars if we can possibly avoid them, but sometimes we have no choice."

Lisa sends the first part of that message loud and clear. Your comments, by comparison, are much more antagonizing. Though I don't agree with all her politics, I think I'll stick w/Lisa.

somebody said...

I'm not diving in, just a random question that came to mind. What is the highest position an Arab MK can achieve in the Knesset? What is the highest position ever achieved by an Arab MK?

Anonymous said...

Aviv,

I don't remember asking you to join my fan club.


Somebody,

I think the Minister of Culture in Israel is Arab.

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

Somebody,
The answers are Prime Minister and Prime Minister. For other roles, please see the (incomplete) list below.

Yigal Allon (*1918 Kfar Tavor, BMoP, † 1980): Deputy Prime Minister 1967-69, Interim Prime Minister 1969, Minister of Education and Culture, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of Immigrant Absorption, Minister of Labour

Binyamin Ben-Eliezer (*1936 ?, Irak): Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Infrastructure, Minister of Defence, Minister of Communications, Minister of Housing and Construction

Avigdor Kahalani (*1944 Ness Ziona, BMoP): Minister of Internal Security

Ayoob Kara (*1955 ?): Deputy Speaker of the Knesset

Ghaleb/Raleb Majadele (*1953 Baqa al-Gharbiyye): Minister of Science, Culture and Sport

Nawaf Massalha (* 1943 Kafr Qara): Deputy Minister of Health

Yitzhak Mordechai, (*1944 ?, Irak): Minister of Defence, Minister of Transport

Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (* 1895 Tiberias, Ottoman Empire, † 1967): Minister of Police

Salah Tarif (*1954 Julis): Minister without Portfolio

Majalli Wahabi (*1954, Beit Jann): Minister of Foreign Affairs, Speaker of the Knesset

Yisrael Yeshayahu (*1908 Sa'dah, Yemen, † 1979): Minister of Post and Speaker of Knesset

Mo-ha-med said...

Evenin' people!
Abu Saar -
if the quote is indeed fake, mista'er, no bad intention on my part in this respect. The website seemed well researched enough.
As for the police, I think that police abuse against Arabs is quite well documented. Check out Mossawa ("Equality") Center.

Howie:
I think that most serious discussants have dropped the '4000 years ago' thing from their discourse. I think you should too, because it's frankly irrelevant. By that logic, Alexandria should belong to Greece and Granada to Saudi Arabia then?
As for the 'big bully on the block' - I'm guessing you refer to Britain? Britain has worked very diligently to create a Jewish minority state in an Arab majority country. The whole purpose of the mandate was to create a Jewish state..
The rest of your story is - not as good as mine. :)

And your assumption about me is incorrect. I have spent nearly a year in Palestine, and couple of months in Israel.

And indeed, there are "arabs who own homes, businesses and do quite well" - a rather flabbergasting thing to write, don't you think?
what, am I supposed to be fucking grateful, am i? What is that, a veiled threat - "we gave it and we can take it away"? Oh hell no, my friend. If they 'own homes and businesses' it's because they worked for them. That doesn't negate the fact that Arabs aren't second - nay, third, fourth! - class citizens in Israel.

Nobody,
"..the Palestinian minority in Israel as a problem that should be resolved".

Oh gosh, do you have any idea what that sounds like??

And re: 'problematic minorities'. Look, a Country isn't a country club, and the 'General Assembly' cannot get together and revoke the membership of those who don't speak Hebrew properly. Citizenship, belonging to a State, comes with a set of basic rights and responsibilities. And off their rights is that their citizenship isn't subject to 'renewal' at the whim of this or that extremist who happens to rule the country.

Aviv:
same as Howie. Am I supposed to be grateful that you "allow" your fellow citizens to seek education? She's a PhD. Good for her. She earned it. Your point being?

And as for women in the Arab world - well, there's surely a LOT of room for much improvement, that's for sure. But it's not as dark as you seem to think - you should drop by Cairo sometimes. It's nothing like what it seems on the National Geographic...

Have a good saturday. I miss the cars-free shabbats..

somebody said...

hey anon,

thanks, I meant Arab as in nizo type not mizrahi type. Although, it's interesting if this is a list of mizrahis since I didn't think they made it into office all that often. Shame there aren't more of them today.

Nobody said...

Nobody,
"..the Palestinian minority in Israel as a problem that should be resolved".

Oh gosh, do you have any idea what that sounds like??

And re: 'problematic minorities'. Look, a Country isn't a country club, and the 'General Assembly' cannot get together and revoke the membership of those who don't speak Hebrew properly. Citizenship, belonging to a State, comes with a set of basic rights and responsibilities. And off their rights is that their citizenship isn't subject to 'renewal' at the whim of this or that extremist who happens to rule the country.


MO-ha-med

The point you are making is so hopeless that I am surprised you keep insisting on it for so long. In general I am not impressed by the General Assembly and Geneva conventions. I think I already mentioned this to you on one occasion. However, if you want to play by these rules then you should be consistent. If the right of self determination for minorities is ok for you, then you should reserve one to majorities too. Moving a border does not deny people left on the other side any right to anything on the territory that stays under their control. It would make impossible for Israeli Arabs to continue leeching on our welfare system, but the privilege to milk welfare of another state is not sanctified by any Geneva convention. And anyway, As Azmi Bishara once said - We don't need your democracy. Keep it to yourselves - and off he went to practice Arab triple kiss with his old democratic friends Assads and Nasrallah.

Arabs are proud people, Mo. You have no idea how much they are. Sure if they don't need our democracy, our welfare they need even less. And if by mistake they got so addicted to it, that they can't stop it, then it's up to us to restore to this proud nation its pride and honor. And in this respect we'll be more than happy to be helpful

Aviv said...

My point is that pretty often, Arabs have more opportunities in Israel than they do in their own countries. (By your same coin, I would like if you could share any experiences from Riyadh).

My point is that Israel is the democracy with the highest percentage of Muslims in the world, more than India.

My point is that as a whole, they get to express themselves individually and as a collective much more than a lot more minorities could in a lot of other countries. (You compared with black people in the US in the '70's - I think Arabs are better represented among college students than Black people were in the US then).

My point is that as a whole, the situation is improving over time.

That these Arabs and Muslims have less opportunities than Jews is certainly a gaping wound. Their public education system is a mess, the local government is in shambles, they're discriminated against in the workplace. There are a lot of reasons for this, many of them directly related to the Arab sector's own shortcomings in the accountability department. So let's put this in context, shall we?

Ellie - How many people have you recruited to the cause?

Howie said...

Mo...

"I have spent nearly a year in Palestine, and couple of months in Israel."

I have gone back and forth with these types of debates and they always end up in the same place...and as usual, you twist a good part of what people say to you.

Interesting though...you spent a time in Israel. I assume you were attacked, spit upon, lynched, harassed, called names?

For the Israeli's here, do you think you can walk as comfortably around Gaza, Jenin, Damascus, Beruit or even Dear fucking born Michigan as Mo probably did through downtown Tel Aviv? Or go back Jew fudge as freely as Nizo does in various parts of Israel?

But somehow we are called the aggressors, the racists and the monsters. I have been called shit names by Arabs right here in my own colleges in the United States since as far back as 1971.

But we are the racists. So they EARNED those businesses MO? Yes..they did. As did my wife's parents in Iraq who promptly had them stolen by the Iraqi government before they killed, robbed and/or ethnically cleaned out their Jewish population...but "those" refugees...well...they don't count for anything...

And the Shabbat comments aren't funny...you can drop them

hehehehehe....comments

:)

Howie said...

Somebody...

Why don't you ask what the highest position a Jew or an Israeli could reach in:

Gaza
Jenin
Saudia
Sudan
Beruit
Bagdad
Cairo
Dearborn Michigan

I mean...at least be fair

Anonymous said...

somebody,

Why do you think it were a list of Mizrahim? If you go through it, you will find that it is not. But maybe you could explain what "Arabs as in nizo type" are? Whatever it is, I guess you will find that the requirement is met by several of the gentlemen listed above. With the exception of Nizo's wit and writing style, of course. That is unique.

(Concerning Mizrahi Jews: You will find many KM of Mizrahi origin if you scroll trough the current Knesset list. I did not include them in the list because you asked for Arabs, while they were usually born in Israel. After all, there were not many Jews left in Arab countries whose descendants could immigrate to Israel nowadays.)

Anonymous said...

Aviv,

Quite a few actually. I worked with a lot of people who were on and on about blaming both sides, but I don't want to get into that. I am not being paid by anybody and it's not my job. The important thing is that I am pro-Israel.

On the other hand Israelis writing about how Israeli politicians are fascists, even when they are far from it, is surely not going to win Israel any fans. Calling Mubarak or King Abdullah a moderate (not Lisa, but most ME commenters) while calling Lieberman a fascist is running a disinformation campaign. Israeli bloggers SHOULD BE combatting this type of dishonesty, whether you like or agree with Lieberman, or not. We have many Republican Senators here who are way more extreme than Lieberman, but journalists are not referring to them as fascists in major newspapers.

Furthermore, if people think Israelis are inhuman or subhuman then that says a lot more about them than it does about Israelis. As far as these people are concerned no amount of Lisa Goldmans or Israeli PR ministries is going to make a difference, believe me.

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

By the way when I say they were blaming both sides this was usually followed with "I hope they all just kill each other." Unfortunately, this is a popular thing to say in this country and I have heard it perhaps hundreds of times.

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

Nizo,

Do your family members in Israel consider themselves 4th class citizens? I know there is discrimination, but what are their experiences like exactly? Also, is it safe to assume they have no desire to join the upcoming Palestinian state?

-Ellie

ar said...

I was wondering how exactly Lieberman's plan was supposed to be implemented. From what I've read about it I'm still not sure if he wants to unilaterally redraw the borders or if he just wants to offer large financial incentives to the "Triangle" in return for it voting to separate from Israel and join the PA in a referendum.

Nobody said...

@ar

I don't think that Lieberman has ever said that it should be unilateral. He always mentioned it in the context of the two state solution. However, I think it's pretty obvious that this would have to be done unilaterally. Neither Israeli Arabs will ever agree to be taken away from our welfare, nor the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank will voluntarily give up on having an outpost and foothold inside Israel itself.

Probably there are more than enough in the Palestinian leadership for whom Israel proper is the next stage after taking over the West Bank and in this sense Israeli Arab minority plays a very important role in these people's vision of the next stage. There should be others for whom this is just a very useful tool to exert pressure in case it's needed and finally there may be splinter and marginal groups interested in moving the next intifadah into Israel proper. In short, it's highly unlikely that such a decision to move the border can be achieved bilaterally. This is a purely Israel's interest to do it.

Nizo said...

Ellie said...

Nizo,

Do your family members in Israel consider themselves 4th class citizens? I know there is discrimination, but what are their experiences like exactly? Also, is it safe to assume they have no desire to join the upcoming Palestinian state?


Ellie, my relatives in Nazareth-illit do not consider themselves Palestinians... When I do see them at family reunions in Jordan they tend to shit on the rest of us and tell us we should have never left.. Yeah, blame me because I was the one who took the decision back in 1948...

Anyway, while they do complain of discrimination at the hands of the Jews, I guarantee you that they would declare an intifada Not to join a Palestinian state..

Mo-ha-med said...

Okay, so what are we looking at here...
The chorus today seems to be "Israeli Arabs have better opportunities than they do in neighbouring countries; they should be fucking grateful and shut up".

I'll simplify and say: well, perhaps you are right, in some respects. Sure. Comparing to Arab countries isn't a hard-acquired victory. :)

But ask yourselves why you bring that point up. Because the aim shouldn't be 'better than people in Syria'. It should be 'as good as their co-citizens'.
And in that, Israel falls short. Admit it. Not publicly here, not to me: I don't care. You need to admit it to yourselves.

No, Nobody,
the point YOU are making is so beyond fascism that I can't understand your insistence. It's not 'self determination' you want. It's revoking citizenships en masse. Be honest about it, at least.
And, surprise surprise, Israeli Arabs aren't there to cater to your every Liebermanesque whim. You don't "redraw borders" at will!

And if revoking citizenship does occur, "leeching on the welfare system" (an interesting thing to say, given that government investments in Arab areas are pathetically comparatively small and that those people who pay their taxes are entitled to their benefits like anyone else, and that in places like Jerusalem they are net contributors to the city budget) is not grounds for revoking citizenship. It's not your dad's country club, mate.
It's their country too.
Like it.. or leave it!
:)

Aviv:
I don't spend much time in Saudi Arabia but when I did write about it, my argument can be summarised in that it's a fanstastically boring - and xenophobic - place that I seriously dislike.

Howie
- I was very selective with whom I hung out in Israel. When in doubt or in fear - in West Jerusalem, primarily - I spoke English loudly and pretended to be an American tourist.

And fyi, my family's assets were also confiscated by the government.
But you're blaming the loss of your wife's parents assets in Iraq on the Palestinians, perhaps? What does that have to do with anything?
Or was it just a good occasion for you to display your hatred of Arabs? In which case, point taken, mate.

As for the Shabbat comments:
a) yes, they are funny!
and
b) what, you don't want me to wish people a good saturday anymore?

And more importantly,

c) Just consider, Howie dear, that they're not meant to be particularly funny. Perhaps they, and all other silly jokes I say on occasion, are meant to break the tone of the discussion, because I've had conversations with extremist Israelis before and I know how things can degenerate rapidly; perhaps my point was to prevent just that, by putting a smiling note in the midst of the heated discussion. Even if by saying stupid jokes.

And maybe, just maybe, I really do miss walking around Tel Aviv on a sunny saturday with no buses in the street, no noise or car fumes, with people strolling their babies on Rotschild avenue.

You wouldn't get it, Howie.
But that's okay.

Nobody said...

Mo

And when a minority achieves self determination and establishes a separate citizenship, it does not revoke citizenship en mass to the majority? What's the difference?

:D :D

Your comments have become so ridiculous. By the way Christian Arabs have higher living and education standards than Israeli Jews? Now what? You are going to say that Israel gives Christian Arabs preferential treatment?

The thing about Muslim Arabs is that in virtually any European country where they have a significant presence they are a failing minority complaining about discrimination. You can see on a parallel streets Chinese or Vietnamese becoming a middle class within two generation while their Muslim Arab neighbors keep lingering in their banlieus. And this no coincidence. Once should just compare their home countries to see that it's a cultural failure. It's a failure of a culture as whole. It has little to do with discrimination. Otherwise Chinese or Christian Arabs would have been just as much a failure as Muslims. But they are not.

Anonymous said...

Most muslims in the US are middle class too, except for black muslims.

Howie said...

Mo...

I love you man...

Even though you have the twisted mind of the worst of the Jewish lawyers I know...you are brilliant...

Of course lots gets lost in the written word, nuance, sarcasm (geez we need those cute little icons here)...I am came out a Jewish extremist...FUNNY! You couldn't be further off the mark with that one Habibi...

BTW you look really mean in your picture...how do you upload them into the cute little boxes...can you do it for me? Here it is:

http://blogs.poz.com/shawn/upload/rambo.jpg

Watch out Palestinian bitches...Howiebo is comin straight outta Hebron to kick you asses right into the fucking sand...

ku lululululululu!

Nobody said...

Anonymous said...

Most muslims in the US are middle class too, except for black muslims.


But the USA is a not a European country and it attracts a very different kind of immigrants from the Middle East than Europe. Middle Easterners who immigrate to the USA have been usually middle class in their own countries. It's Europe which is a destination for average Moroccans, Algerians and others.

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
I do not know about the Middle Easterners who immigrate to the USA, but I know a bit about those who immigrate to the European country I am living in. It seems that many of them were middle class in their home countries, too (which is not surprising, given that the ticket to Europe does not come for free): physicians, engineers, linguists, journalists and so on. However, many, if not most of them arrive as refugees. As refugees, they are not allowed to work for several months. In some cases, they even have to wait for years. When they finally receive their work permit, their diploma are not recognized. So they start to work as pizza boy, construction worker, caretaker, cleaning woman, etc. Respectable jobs, but poorly paid and in many cases a waste of potential. I guess this European policy is the main reason why immigrants from Arab countries do so badly in the first and second generation.

Howie said...

Nizo...

I was just studying your little picture in the box...I want one too...I do I do...

I have been a psychologist for decades now. I have your pic. analyzed. The orange canoe thing is clearly a penis. The tree line makes for perfect pubic hairs leading into a rectum.

Is it possible you are gay?

somebody said...

"Why do you think it were a list of Mizrahim?"

common sense, First names like avigdor sound quintessentially jewish and are not used by arabs. Also israel putting an arab in the positions of prime minister, defence minister and minister of internal security....? I think not. I'm genuinely surprised that mizrahim occupied those positions just because MKs in the news always seem to be blond haired and blue eyed.

Anonymous said...

Anon, I second that. We need to do what the americans do. The way we treat the immigrants is a disgrace. Were in Europe are you from?
Helen

Nobody said...

The US went through two waves of Arab immigration. The first was almost entirely Christian and in fact I think 40% of American Arabs are Christians. The second came after the ww2 and was packed with middle class and wealthy people who were fleeing nationalizations of the Baath and Nasserists. Regular people who did not have money and education went to Europe which is a sea away.

In general the US is more selective in its choice of immigrants since it does not need new people while Europe is collapsing demographically and since decades is sustaining itself squarely by practicing demographic vampirism on a massive scale. (This does not mean that Europe is getting enough immigration to avert the incoming disaster. It does not get even nearly enough). This difference in selectiveness and a distance from the Middle East accounts for a very big difference in quality between the immigrations the two of them attract.

Europe was actively encouraging or at least not preventing immigration from the Middle East until a backlash in the form of anti immigration parties has arrived. Don't waste your time on Europe. The old world is doomed.

Anonymous said...

"don't waste our time on Europe"? Er. we live there.
Helen

Mo-ha-med said...

Howie - this is indeed my meanest looking photo. :)
Cool Rambo photo!!
You need to create a blogger.com account and upload the photo there; it will automatically be displayed next to your name when you leave comments on blogspot blogs. (won't work on wordpress, etc.)
Nobody:
'failure of a culture as a whole', you say? Wow. Not a pretentious thing to say at all.
Jeez, I don't even know where to begin.
Nevertheless, comparing Israeli Arabs - who are the native population - to Muslim immigrants in Europe is dishonest.
Regarding the latter: Muslims blend less into the European populations than do Christians. And Arabs have much weaker support networks than, say, the Chinese. Anyways. Long discussion. Plus Anonymous did a better explanation than I would.

And FYI, Europe isn't practicing "demographic vampirism" at all - their immigration laws are tougher everyday.
After WW2, though, is when most North African immigrants came. They picked them young - they needed arms at the time, not brains. They were hoping that those people would somehow move back to North Africa after their job was done; didn't happen.
And they've been stuck in the 'banlieues' ever since.

Nizo said...

Howie said...
"I have been a psychologist for decades now. I have your pic. analyzed. The orange canoe thing is clearly a penis. The tree line makes for perfect pubic hairs leading into a rectum. Is it possible you are gay?"

You're not a psychologist, you're a pervert. What is this talk of pubic hair and penises, what kind of blog do you think this is? You're talking to a church-going man here.

Please use language that is in line with the conservative editorial line of the medium within which you're commenting.

I'm warning you that I will not allow a repeat of such behaviour.

Nizo said...

On the subject of Europe and her Muslims, I commented on Noga's blog:

"I have no compassion for former European colonial powers who complain about their Muslim populations.

Take France, at some point they colonised Algeria and treated it as a natural extension of La France Métropolitaine. A century later they brought in thousands of Algerians to make up for post WWII labour shortages... And then they have the nerve to complain when they see flocks of niqab-wearing women in Paris..

As for the Brits, it's a similar picture when it comes to their Pakistani population. The Brits ruled the Indian subcontinent, exploited it, partitioned it, and ended up attracting hordes of diminutive curry-smelling brown people who came to England just to make a living.

And now they complain that one hears more Urdu than English at the Heathrow airport..

In Arabic we have a saying "Meen bijeeb el dob la-karmo?"

- who brings the bear to his own vineyard?


But many bears they did let in, and here's a newsflash: bears tend to multiply."

Anonymous said...

Nobody:
"By the way Christian Arabs have higher living and education standards than Israeli Jews "

This is interesting. Where did you get this information from?

Also, more than 40% of American Arabs are Christian. I think the number is more like 60%. 25% of American Arabs are Muslim. This is according to the Arab American Institute.

http://www.aaiusa.org/arab-americans/22/demographics

-Ellie

Anonymous said...

But Nizo, many Europeans don't have a problem with these immigrants. Take Helen for example.

I want to add that in the United States many Muslims and Jews are living in the same middle class neighborhoods. I grew up in one like that. Mainly they were Pakistanis, Turks and Albanians. I didn't see any hijabs or anything like that. Maybe now it's different.

-Ellie

Nizo said...

Ellie,

Nobody correctly contrasted the Muslims of Europe and the US.

Howie said...

Mo...

That is not Rambo...that is me...Slyvester is an old buddy and frequently has tried to copy my work.

Nizo...denial is a river in Egypt that black people like to swim in. It is also a form of avoidance when threatening questions are asked or painful insights are brought to the patience awareness...

So I am awaiting your response to my interpretation of your little "Rorschach" test with the "canoe" in the "woods"...Canoe/woods...phffff

Is my point to vague or is the music from Cabaret you are playing in the background causing you distraction?

Nizo said...

No ya Howie, there is no filth in the pic.. This is indeed my kayak, "big Haifa", and it was a beautiful summer day up in the Laurentian mountains where I took the pic..

Howie said...

Nizo...

Of course...just screwing off...which accounts for about 80% of my comments...

Love your blog...keeps me from getting work done..praise the lawd for that.

Nobody said...

Anonymous said...
Nobody:
"By the way Christian Arabs have higher living and education standards than Israeli Jews "

This is interesting. Where did you get this information from?


From different sources. Amnon Rubinstein has something published about it on the internet. There were a couple of reports in the Haaretz by the end of the year about who is doing how in matriculation certificates and university enrollments. You sure can google something. Check wikipedia.

Howie said...

Nizo..

"I'm warning you that I will not allow a repeat of such behaviour."


What you gonna do...spank me big boy?

Nobody said...

Nizo said...

In Arabic we have a saying "Meen bijeeb el dob la-karmo?"

- who brings the bear to his own vineyard?


But many bears they did let in, and here's a newsflash: bears tend to multiply."

As I mentioned above, we, wildlife enthusiasts, have a similar saying: YOU DON'T STICK YOUR FUCKING STUPID HEAD INTO THEIR DEN BECAUSE YOU WILL BE EATEN!!!

You want to make the world a better place, you want to believe in your idiotic utopias, you want to worship indigenous cultures - it's all nice as long as you don't import this shit into your country. These people simply took whole areas of the Middle East and transfered them to European cities as they are, together with their fundamentalism, honor killings and other shit. One should really hate himself and his country to do such a thing.

Nobody said...

Have you noticed by the way articles the Economist is publishing recently about Muslim immigration and Islam in Britain/Europe? If the Economist, which is always pro globalization and pro immigration, is writing such stuff, then something is really happening there.

Anonymous said...

Nizo, your wrong. The reason that's its tougher for muslims in Europe is that many countries have a extensive welfare systems that's not suitable for immigrants. Check out anon's comment.
And many of these "diminutive curry-smelling brown people " as you call them are quite prosperious. Some are not, but many are. Things are more complicated than you and your friend Nobody might think. I doubt neither of you have done any throughout research on the subject.
Nobody, the Economist is still pro immigration, and globalisation. It has pointed out problems with British muslims, but in a much nuanced way. The Economist always tries to be fairly balanced.
Helen

Anonymous said...

Nizo, your wrong. The reason that's its tougher for muslims in Europe is that many countries have a extensive welfare systems that's not suitable for immigrants. Check out anon's comment.
And many of these "diminutive curry-smelling brown people " as you call them are quite prosperious. Some are not, but many are. Things are more complicated than you and your friend Nobody might think. I doubt neither of you have done any throughout research on the subject.
Nobody, the Economist is still pro immigration, and globalisation. It has pointed out problems with British muslims, but in a much nuanced way. The Economist always tries to be fairly balanced.
Helen

Nobody said...

Helen

You can have as many Muslims as you wish. I have no objections to it. Neither Nizo I bet. Just be sure that it's you who have them and not the other way round. I object only to people playing Mahatma-Gandhis on me or at my expense. As long as you mind your own business, it remains yours and not mine.

Andrey said...

Just be sure that it's you who have them and not the other way round.
is this a literal translation of your thought, fro Russian?

Nobody said...

No. It was a literal translation of one year of my life in Spain

Nobody said...

By the way, how is life? Why I don't see you more often?

Anonymous said...

Nobody, to be called a Mahatma Gandhi is a compliment as far as I'm concerned....Although I'm no pacifist,I've nothing but respect for the man, so thank you. And I'm glad we're having immigrants (muslim or otherwise)in Europe, we need them, and they us. Now, to make you laugh and to confirm you in your views, I'll have you know that a few months back, the police stopped an islamic plot to blow up an East London business center, where I work...(And a thousands others, many of whom muslims) Better luck next time, eh? :D
Helen

Nobody said...

Helen

You can do with your countries what you want and anyway you don't have much choice. As far as I am concerned, what's going on in Europe is insane. This is simply lacking any sense. It beats me for example why countries such as Spain, Portugal or Italy should have any other immigration than from South America where the same or very similar languages are spoken and a culture is somewhat similar. However, I am not calling anybody racists, fascists or whatever. I just say these people are doing something stupid, they are idiots. However, I consider the right to self destruct a fundamental human right. It should not be denied to anybody, let alone that it's impossible to stop a person bent on self destruction. I don't share Aviv's enthusiasm for Western culture. My experience in Europe and in other ways has convinced me that this culture has become a no survivor and nobody can stop it. However, it can still go down nicely without pushing its surreal ideology down people's throats in other parts of the world and that's all.

Anonymous said...

Well. It's a good thing you don't live in Europe then.
We can't stop the north african immigrants to come.They try with cruel treattment, but these people risk their life to come here, in search for a better life. We need them, but we don't seem to realize it. The main reason they come is because of the insanse, immoral trade restriction that the EU puts on third way countries, making it extremely hard for them to develop their own economies...Now obviosly I don't share you belief that Europe is doomed, but I agree our politics is insane, but not in the same way you do. If you have any interests in these matters at all, I recomendend "Immigrants your country need them" by Philippe Legrain, an ex reporter for the Economist by coincidence.
www.philippelegrain.com

Anonymous said...

Oh, with "surreal ideology" I guess you mean concerns for human rights, protests against your occupation...Well, I'm afraid that both Europe and problably also the US will continue to do this, I'm afraid.
Helen

Nobody said...

Helen

I am a rational person who deals with technical stuff. If I see a train coming to hit you, you will never convince me that you are going to be ok just because you are a nice person and have good intentions. Unless you explain me how you are planning to avoid the train, you are doomed as far as I am concerned.

Now I lived in Europe and I met Europeans on other occasions and it's obvious to me not only that the scale of approaching problems is tremendous, but also that by now this so called Western culture has lost any ability to address them as technical problems in a rational way. Europe is packed with people like you who are very short on understanding anything, but are very long on this incessant and pointless moralizing. This culture is ideologically incapable of not only coming up with solutions, it's hardly capable of recognizing problems at all. Throughout that year I lived in Barcelona they were struggling to connect in public the shocking scale of petty criminality on their streets with immigration. They simply could not spell it as it is.

In my view the proliferation of anti immigration parties in Europe, caused by reckless immigration policies of the past, is such that I don't know how much more immigration Europe can afford at all. The future of Europe as far as I can see lies in gradually accelerating decline and deterioration amidst three internal conflicts superimposed one over another. A social one, between the class of pensioners and working classes, a generational one, and an ethnic one since the pensioner class will be dominated by natives while immigrants will be overrepresented among working classes and they generally need less of this social system since unlike natives they are not in the habit of throwing their older parents to dogs, that's to say to various nursing facilities to care for them.

The immigration solution for Europe's demographic crisis was dubious from the beginning. But its implementation has happened to be even worse as Europe filled itself with disintegrated and estranged minorities that in many places instead of strengthening welfare states led to their premature demise. I just don't see any reason why I should believe that it's going to get any better in the future.

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
I've been following your comments here and there and I think that you're a racist and a fascist. If Muslims were to write about Jews they way you write about Muslims they would be accused of anti-semitism.

I suggest you copy-paste your comments into Microsoft Word and replace words Arabs and Muslims with the word Jew. You will then realize that the things you say are no different than the worst Nazi propaganda.

Nobody said...

Anon

How did you manage to pack all these words - nazi, fascist, racist - into one single comment. What you are Muslim or something?

Nobody said...

Oh. I see you comment on another thread. Yes, you are

:D :D

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
Yes I am Muslim but unlike you I did not earn any of these labels.

You paint a whole religion with one broad stroke and here is where I would add that you are also an ignorant person.

One sign of maturity is to be able to put yourself into other people's shoes. Imagine you were a Muslim and reading such injurious comments. How would you feel?

Can you not argue or comment without attacking people?

Nobody said...

Anon

I just finished writing a very long uncomplimentary comment about Western culture to which I belong. This is as much as I feel about it. As one wise person said - the fact that a person can be born in a pig stay, does not mean he is a pig. If you are a person of many sensitivities, you should better stay away from this blog.

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
I am proud to be a Muslim and a human being who does not resent others based on their religion.

I have nothing against you for being Jewish and I don't agree with Muslims who would insult you or your religion.

I just take offense to the way you profile a whole religion.

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
This is a public forum and it is not up to you kind sir if I read it or not.

The fact that you ask me not to read it makes me think that you are embarrassed about what you wrote. This is a good start. I encourage you to continue.

:D :D

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
If you think you are paying me compliments by criticizing Western culture you are mistaken.

Unlike you I don't judge the cultures of others. The West has the right to stay the West and the East stays the East. I just think we can debate in a polite and civil manner without categorically attacking the other side.

Nobody said...

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
If you think you are paying me compliments by criticizing Western culture you are mistaken.


No. I don't care about your sensitivities. Also I am no fan of Judaism and never claimed that Jews/Israelis are endearing people. What you are offering me is a fair deal but you came to a very wrong market. This stuff is trading well in other places.

Finally, I don't know if you noticed this, but the owner of this blog is gay. I am simply worried that as you keep reading it, you may soon find your stomach on the floor. It was a friendly advise, no offense was intended.

Anonymous said...

First, you're not a rational person. Compulsive insultingness plus judging a whole religion because of some fanatics is not rational. Second, this quote "Unless you explain me how you are planning to avoid the train" Well, if my explanations not good enough, you could always read the book or the Economist.
And thirdly, I don't see how you're belong to the western culture: you despise Europe, you don't believe in human rights, you have a poor view of democracy, you reject the whole notion of individuality- you categorize people as a mass with certain attributes. What's western about you?

Anon, don't be offended by Nobody. You should know this guy takes pleasure in being offensive. He was probably born that way.
Helen

Anonymous said...

Nobody,
No danger I'm a woman.
I'm glad to hear that you are not the monster you pretend to be.

:D :D

Helen and Mo,
I wanted to thank you for being voices of reason in this comment thread. This is just a word to tell you that you have your fans.

Nobody said...

Well anon

You've been warned

:D :D

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